Difference between revisions of "Staff Meeting 2 March 2014"
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<br>[15:26] <+janrinok> Is that the end of the meeting?
<br>[15:26] <+janrinok> Is that the end of the meeting?
<br>[15:27] <@xlefay> I hope so
<br>[15:27] <@xlefay> I hope so
Revision as of 21:51, 3 March 2014
This is a page regarding the SoylentNews Staff Meeting, held on 2 March 2014 at 1800 UTC.
[13:00] <@Landon> meeting.start()
[13:00] <@mrcoolbp> "GOOD NEWS EVERYONE: Staff Meeting Starts.....Now."
[13:00] <@Barrabas> Antelope freeway, one mile...
[13:00] <@mattie_p> All right, lets get started
[13:00] <@buttercake> ... and GO!
[13:00] <@mattie_p> I'm going to ask Barrabas to start off with his vision for the site
[13:00] <@Barrabas> OK. Here's my vision:
[13:00] <@mattie_p> He has been talking about it for some time in private
[13:00] <@Barrabas> These goals are abbreviated for purposes of IRC.
[13:00] <@Barrabas> A more detailed explanation (wiki document) is forthcoming.
[13:00] <@Barrabas> SoylentNews has an outward facing side, the one we present to the world, and an inward facing one,
[13:00] <@Barrabas> the one we enjoy. My vision mirrors that model: I have goals for how the world
[13:01] <@Barrabas> perceives us, and I have goals for how we perceive ourselves.
[13:01] <@Barrabas> The outward-facing goal is pretty big - it includes being on an even-footing with top news
[13:01] <@Barrabas> agencies in the world. That means the newsfeed has the same integrity, the same esteem, and the
[13:01] <@Barrabas> same reliability as the big players. We are in the league of MSNBC, the BBC, and CBS. Like
[13:01] <@Barrabas> Wikipedia, we are a staple of the internet.
[13:01] <@Barrabas> The inward facing side is where we build a better system, and show
[13:01] <@Barrabas> the world just how good the internet can be. I want to attract users like tacks to a magnet by giving
[13:01] <@Barrabas> value without mortgaging privacy or restricting rights. Our users are our customers, not our product.
[13:01] <@Barrabas> I want to expand into services beyond the newsfeed, and experiment with policies and new
[13:01] <@Barrabas> ideas. This is why I asked to have our own IRC, Wiki, and Forums - to give us tools to
[13:01] <@Barrabas> experiment with new ideas. We could just run the
[13:01] <@Barrabas> newsfeed and be a clone of slashdot, but we've achieved that and to relax now would
[13:01] <@Barrabas> be boring. We have "nerd paradise" in news reporting, now I want to see how
[13:01] <@Barrabas> much further we can go, how much bigger our paradise can be.
[13:01] <@Barrabas> This is probably our *last* chance to bring reason and sanity back to the
[13:01] <@Barrabas> internet. If nerds can't do it, probably no one can. Empires will rise and fall, stars
[13:01] <@Barrabas> will flicker and fade, but if we can't fix the internet it will stay broken forever.
[13:01] <@Barrabas> I'm a big fan of finding out where the limits are by trying to surpass them. If
[13:01] <@Barrabas> enough extraordinary people are willing to help we'll find out how just far we can go.
[13:01] <@mattie_p> I'll give everyone a few moments to read that
[13:02] <@Barrabas> That's it. (For the record, I like the idea of having the public watch the meetings.
[13:02] <@mattie_p> Feel free to ask Barrabas questions on this
[13:02] <@xlefay> let's all just first read it ;)
[13:02] <@mrgirlpluggedout> I like it.
[13:02] <@mrcoolbp> ^^^
[13:02] <+janrinok> thumbs up
[13:02] <+kobach> 3rd
[13:02] <@Barrabas> One yea, two...
[13:03] <+kobach> 4th*
[13:03] <@FunPika> I like it.
[13:03] <@martyb> Just. Plain. Wow.
[13:03] <@Dopefish> that's all fine to be. I share in your vision too Barrabas
[13:03] <@paulej72> I have no issue with this
[13:03] <@mrcoolbp> Any nay votes, or questions?
[13:04] <@mechanicjay> I like it and am on board.
[13:04] <@audioguy> My dream as well.
[13:04] <@Landon> yeah, I really like that we're experimenting with other forms of communication
[13:04] <@Cactus> News aggregators are everywhere. If we want to stand out, we're going to have to push for more. I like it.
[13:04] <+kobach> same
[13:04] <@mrgirlpluggedout> I especially appreciate your conception of the site as a bastion of sanity.
[13:04] <@Landon> even if some of them don't quite work
[13:04] <@mattie_p> Someone pipe up if you don't like it
[13:04] <@mattie_p> now is the time to object
[13:04] <@Barrabas> mattie_p: We should post an edited transcript of this meeting as a newsfeed article & see what the community thinks.
[13:04] <+janrinok> what's not to like?
[13:04] <@xlefay> Hmm.. I'm thinking
[13:04] <@mattie_p> Barrabas, I can get Landon to copy the logs
[13:04] <@martyb> Just want to make sure we don't take our eyes off getting SoylentNews.org solid and stable as we do this.
[13:04] <@mattie_p> of xlefay
[13:05] <@xlefay> !chanlog-on
[13:05] <@xlefay> Landon: ... that bot.
[13:05] <@mattie_p> martyb, I agree
[13:05] <@audioguy> You left out 'toppling corrupt governments'
[13:05] <@Landon> !chatlog-on
[13:05] <@Zapp> chatlog enabled on (bender,#staff)
[13:05] <@xlefay> Thank you.
[13:05] <+kobach> agreed w/ audioguy
[13:05] <@Landon> I've got logs
[13:05] <@Landon> they will be complete
[13:05] <@LaminatorX> Part of what is significant about this, is that we're a community that is successfully taken the reins of its own environment away from the corps that were exploiting it.
[13:05] <@Dopefish> no corporate slant. No mess
[13:05] <@mattie_p> we'll be working on multiple things at once, and my role is to synchronize those efforts so we don't lose track
[13:05] <@xlefay> Can we slow down for a second and actually give it some more thought?
[13:06] <@mattie_p> We just need to agree on what our goals are FIRST
[13:06] <@mattie_p> that's why I asked our founder to present his vision for discussion
[13:06] <@xlefay> this will be our combined vision, let's think about it and see if it needs expanding or lessening, let's talk ;)
[13:06] <@martyb> Barrabas: I volunteer to help with summary, transcription, posting.
[13:06] <@audioguy> It's a high goal, but no one ever got anywhere by aiming low...
[13:06] <@mrgirlpluggedout> Barrabas, will you explain your business model later in the meeting?
[13:06] <@Barrabas> Our (my, actually) next stepl is to get us a business structure and revenue streams.
[13:07] <@mrgirlpluggedout> A crucial part of our plan should be step 2.
[13:07] <@mrgirlpluggedout> It cannot be a "2) ???" type business plan.
[13:07] <@Dopefish> mrgirlpluggedout: We are planning to aim for a non-profit structure
[13:07] <@mattie_p> yeah, I'd like to get to that in a bit
[13:07] <@mechanicjay> okay, thinking a bit more indepth about what our Supreme Overload just said. I agree, that we as techies have pretty already lost control. Corporations, PR agencies and Wall street have pretty much taken over at this point.
[13:08] <@Barrabas> mrgirlpluggedout: Sure. It's mattie's meeting, though.
[13:08] <@mattie_p> please keep the discussion jkust on vision at this point
[13:08] <@mrcoolbp> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[13:08] <@mattie_p> excellent
[13:08] <@kobach> rofl
[13:08] <+stderr> "We are in the league of MSNBC, the BBC, and CBS."... For that to happen we really need to stop sitting on stories for so long.
[13:09] <@NCommander> Sorry that I'm late, are we still meeting?
[13:09] <@mattie_p> yes, doing it now
[13:09] <@FunPika> Yes
[13:09] <@LaminatorX> The vision is sound. B. has used The Atlantic as a point of reference before, and I think it's a good one. Let me throw our indymedia.org as another.
[13:09] <@mattie_p> we're talking vision
[13:09] <@mechanicjay> With that having been said, I think with a critical mass of like minded folks, we can achieve something better, something that more represents the mertiocracy that up until recently defined the internet.
[13:09] <@xlefay> Do the major media outlets have a good reputation for having integrity, etc..? Last I checked, many didn't. /. even stopped having that. How are we going to prevent that?
[13:09] <@Cactus> Bottom line is $, one way or another for nearly all available news sources. - I'd like to add something to the vision statement about delivering top-notch news, and making it available to everyone. Our end goal isn;t simply revenue.
[13:10] <@LaminatorX> Independance goes a long way towards credibility.
[13:10] <@Landon> one of the questions from #Soylent, to paraphrase: By being in the leage uf MSNBC/BBC/CBS, will that mean posting _many_ more stories? or is the plan to achieve that status by having a slower newsfeed?
[13:10] <@mrgirlpluggedout> stderr, part of what made /. good, imo, was that its stories were already old news. The comments are what made the site what it once was.
[13:10] <@mattie_p> That is a good question, Landon, but I think we're getting sidetracked
[13:10] <@NCommander> Well, it might be worth simply having the site better subdivided. We can have more stories *total*, but the tech questions could be under tech.soylentnews.org
[13:10] <@NCommander> */2 cents*
[13:10] <@mechanicjay> yes, its the discussion and commentary that is the differentiating factor here, not the speed of the feed
[13:10] <@kobach> old but usually more verified newsw
[13:11] <@mattie_p> I'd like to know does the site even WANT to be in the league as the major news players?
[13:11] <@mattie_p> Or do we want to stay a small, community driven site?
[13:11] <@xlefay> I surely don't.
[13:11] <@Dopefish> We are an aggregator of news.
[13:11] <@Landon> IFF we can maintain the quality of our comments
[13:11] <@Landon> I've seen some of the comment sections on those sites......
[13:11] <+janrinok> I'd like to be different from the major news players
[13:11] <@xlefay> janrinok++ indeed.
[13:11] <@Zapp> karma - janrinok: 1
[13:11] <@mrgirlpluggedout> kobach, I recall many many times when the first comments explained how the story is factually wrong.
[13:11] <@Dopefish> We want to push the best topics forward and let the community comment, just like another site did.
[13:11] <+stderr> mrgirlpluggedout: But are soylentnews just "slashdot 2.0"?
[13:12] <@Dopefish> that's honestly where the spirit of the site lies
[13:12] <@mrcoolbp> I'd like to be in the leauge of major outfits only in recognition
[13:12] <@LaminatorX> It might be useful to frame what we are as a "Community News Discussion Site." Emphasizing what makes us different.
[13:12] <@FunPika> Agreed, we really don't want our comments section to reach the quality of for example...CNN.
[13:12] <@xlefay> you mean the lack thereof, I take it FunPika?
[13:12] <@mrgirlpluggedout> LaminatorX, I agree.
[13:12] <@FunPika> yeah the lack of quality
[13:12] <@martyb> Focus first on the quality and the quantity will come.
[13:13] <@kobach> ^
[13:13] <@mattie_p> But the question on the table is "Do we shoot for the stars?"
[13:13] <@mechanicjay> ^^
[13:13] <@Dopefish> eventually
[13:13] <@Landon> mattie_p: absolutely
[13:13] <+janrinok> mattie_p: yes but in a geek way
[13:13] <@Barrabas> I don't think we'll be a news *media* like the big players, but we can certainly be the go-to site for news *quality*.
[13:13] <@kobach> mattie_p: i think the question there is why not?
[13:13] <@xlefay> We're building up a great community, it'll grow and extend and we shouldn't be shooting "for the stars" just yet in my opinion.
[13:13] <@NCommander> The difference between us and CNN and other sites is we have a functional moderation system which keeps quality of the discussions high
[13:13] <@xlefay> Barrabas: agreed.
[13:13] <@LaminatorX> There're plenty of places to go for mediocre quantity.
[13:13] <@Barrabas> Also, on rare occasions, it would be nice if we were a primary news source.
[13:14] <@Dopefish> I believe this site will grow on its own terms naturally
[13:14] <@kobach> we're already spread widely geographically, first hand reporting shouldnt be hard in the future
[13:14] <@mechanicjay> xlefay: true, but we should have an goal in site to move towarrds
[13:14] <@xlefay> NCommander: which will only be as high as long as the community has standards
[13:14] <@xlefay> mechanicjay: I agree
[13:14] <@Cactus> I think the stars is a great goal, but not at the expense of quality, or making sure each step is stable and ready before moving to something else.
[13:14] <@LaminatorX> Good reportage is hard, but worthwhile.
[13:14] <@robind> Dopefish, I'd tend to agree with that but the total users graph has slowed down significantly
[13:15] <@NCommander> xlefay, which can be solved by limited moderation to users with high(ish) karma, which was part of the algo now, though the threshold is set to 0 (i.e., neutral of better)
[13:15] <@xlefay> Barrabas: <migz> Barabas: to be a primary would require different infrastucture
[13:15] <@mattie_p> ok, vision first, then strategy
[13:15] <@Barrabas> xlefay: I also agree. One step at a time. You wanted a vision, so I'm thinking 10 years forward.
[13:15] <@mattie_p> please let's keep it focused for now
[13:15] <@mechanicjay> The difficulty is of course, the bigger and wider the community gets, the more varied in quality the discussion becomes.
[13:15] <@Dopefish> robind: What about total site hits?
[13:15] <@xlefay> NCommander: I haven't read everything you wrote in your journal just yet.
[13:15] <@NCommander> I *just* got the stats email for tonight
[13:15] <@NCommander> Give me a second
[13:15] <@robind> Dopefish, that's increasing at about the same rate as it always had
[13:15] <@mattie_p> later, please
[13:15] <@robind> sorry
[13:15] <@mattie_p> its ok
[13:16] <@mattie_p> easy to get sidetracked
[13:16] <@Cactus> As long as it isn't purely clickbate headlines, and we keep a decent moderation system going, I would think it wouldn't devolve to the point of Y! News comments.
[13:16] <@Dopefish> lets take that offline
[13:16] <@NCommander> Our total stat hits as of yesterday are: total hits: 6515301
[13:16] <@mattie_p> Do we aim for the stars? Because some things I've been pursuing were along those lines, like the youtube contest
[13:16] <+janrinok> we want to be the best at what we do, but not be the same as the others
[13:16] <@xlefay> Gradually, sure.
[13:16] <@LaminatorX> Are we broadly in agreement then on the vision, start small, but take concrete steps towards something bigger so long as they don't compromise what we value?
[13:16] <@mattie_p> Some of the feedback I received there was that we don't want publicity, we want to stay "organic growth"
[13:16] <@audioguy> That is hits. Do you have a pageview stat?
[13:17] <@mattie_p> so things we do will be different if we don't have the same vision
[13:17] <@kobach> LaminatorX: i am, take a vote?
[13:17] <@xlefay> mattie_p: let's just take a vote
[13:17] <@mechanicjay> there's "Organic Growth" and there dead because you didn't promote yourself.
[13:17] <@mattie_p> xlefay ok
[13:17] <@xlefay> I suggest three options: Yes | Gradually | No
[13:17] <@kobach> i think gradually should be implied
[13:17] <@Cactus> mattie_p, I think it's more on HOW you generate that growth. The YouTube thing doesn't fit well with that group we have here.
[13:17] <@martyb> Build gradually, build up strenght and momentum and reputation in one area, then build on that as we expand.
[13:17] <@mattie_p> well, gradually = we want that vision
[13:17] <@Landon> Cactus: we may also be a little small to branch out like that quite yet
[13:17] <@mattie_p> so its really yes or no
[13:18] <@mrcoolbp> "Yes"
[13:18] <@kobach> aye
[13:18] <+janrinok> Yes
[13:18] <@LaminatorX> 1
[13:18] <@mattie_p> taking votes now:
[13:18] <@robind> what the hell are we voting on
[13:18] <@mrgirlpluggedout> mattie_p, with a small userbase to begin with, a community can easily stagnate. Even if the other site hadn't suffered ill-conceived changes, it would have dwindled.
[13:18] <@NCommander> Can we get the vote phased in a simple question
[13:18] <@kobach> Are we broadly in agreement then on the vision, start small, but take concrete steps towards something bigger so long as they don't compromise what we value?
[13:18] <@mattie_p> if we agree with Barrabas's vision to be a major news site in the future
[13:18] <@Barrabas> yes
[13:18] <@Dopefish> yes
[13:18] <@martyb> The vision sounds
[13:18] <@xlefay> Gradually, I do see a future in this matter however, I'm cautious, the community will change over time and that's fine but we should be able to maintain our identity in the future.
[13:18] <@Cactus> yes
[13:18] <@audioguy> agree
[13:19] <@mrcoolbp> -===Vote: Do we want to want "Publicity"===-
[13:19] <@Landon> yes
[13:19] <@xlefay> (that's a yes)
[13:19] <+janrinok> yes - again
[13:19] <@NCommander> +1
[13:19] <@kobach> AYE!
[13:19] <@FunPika> yes
[13:19] <@mechanicjay> yes
[13:19] <@Dopefish> indeed
[13:19] <@mrgirlpluggedout> Yes
[13:19] <@martyb> yes
[13:19] <+stderr> Depends
[13:19] <@audioguy> tasteful, yes
[13:19] <@robind> ok well that's a majoriy of yes right there
[13:19] <@mattie_p> all right, looks like the ayes have it, with some reservations
[13:19] <@LaminatorX> Publicity yes, but again without resorting to upworthy-style clickbait.
[13:19] <@paulej72> tasteful yes
[13:19] <@Cactus> Just remember the demographic we are/want when you aim for "publicity"
[13:19] <@martyb> visibility? Earn it and we'll get it.
[13:19] <@mattie_p> well, lets'
[13:19] <@mattie_p> lets move on to Editorial
[13:19] <@xlefay> Cactus: agreed.
[13:20] <@mattie_p> I know Dopefish needs to leave soon
[13:20] <@mrcoolbp> -=====Topic: Editorial====-
[13:20] <@Barrabas> mrcoolbp: If you mean "do we advertize the site", beaning purchase ads with other outlets, I'm against that.
[13:20] <@mattie_p> Dopefish, can you give everyone a quick status update?
[13:20] <@Dopefish> yes thank you
[13:20] <@mattie_p> and what you intend to do in the near term?
[13:20] <@Barrabas> mrcoolbp: If you mean "speak at conferences, talk things up", then I'm all for that.
[13:20] <@xlefay> Can I ask a question first? If so.. how is this input used? e.g. only the votes, the entire conversation on the matter, etc? That was never really clear before hand.
[13:20] <@Dopefish> Basically... our editor head count is looking healthy now. But there are a few concerns we need to address...
[13:20] <@mrcoolbp> Barrabas: was just trying to summarize. The concensus is that we want some kind of publicity but to be cautious about the methods
[13:21] <@mattie_p> Mainly this is for discussion purposes so the staff understands what each other is doing
[13:21] <@kobach> i think the general consensus is everything we do, take it gradually so we do it right the first time
[13:21] <@xlefay> mattie_p: so the vote isn't final? Who has the say on what's final and not then?
[13:21] <@martyb> kobach: I'm for that: do it right.
[13:22] <@mattie_p> xlefay: right now, me.
[13:22] <@Dopefish> Ensuring a consistent quality with the title (i.e. cap the beginning of every word except for words like and, of, and for). We also don't want to invoke Betteridge's law of headlines. We are working to change that.
[13:22] <@Barrabas> xlefay: The overlords run their departments by consensus. I make the big decisions by consensus of the overall community.
[13:22] <@mattie_p> until you all vote me out
[13:22] <@xlefay> Barrabas: so you are in fact taking our votes we just made into consideration
[13:22] <@xlefay> as well as that of the community.
[13:22] <@mrgirlpluggedout> Barrabas, why are you against advertising?
[13:22] <@Barrabas> mrgirlpluggedout: Let's talk about that offline.
[13:23] <@mattie_p> hang on, please
[13:23] <@mrcoolbp> -===Point of order: Dopefish has to leave soon===-
[13:23] <@mattie_p> Dopefish needs tyo leave son
[13:23] <@mattie_p> *soon
[13:23] <@Dopefish> yeah sorry guys
[13:23] <@mrgirlpluggedout> Dopefish, is anyone working on a manual of style?
[13:23] <@Barrabas> xlefay: If I get the feeling that the consensus is mostly one way, then I won't need a vote.
[13:23] <@LaminatorX> I am
[13:23] <@xlefay> mrgirlpluggedout: there's a wiki entry, a whole page full
[13:23] <@NCommander> Barrabas, some of our departments however overlap, who makes what decisions, and how can we tell their has been consensus?
[13:23] <@mrgirlpluggedout> Barrabas, okie dokie.
[13:23] <@xlefay> Barrabas: I agree on that one
[13:23] <@xlefay> but a vote is a good way to know that
[13:24] <@Barrabas> xlefay: Let's let mattie run the meeting. We can talk after.
[13:24] <@Dopefish> I am discussing the manual of style at the next editor meeting. But suffice to say, it is being worked on
[13:24] <@mrcoolbp> dopefish: please continue
[13:24] <@mattie_p> Dopefish, a question: do you think you could use more editors?
[13:25] <@Dopefish> I am also looking for more editors from the other side of the globe. i.e. International folks from Europe and Asia
[13:25] <+stderr> Dopefish: Does the manual cover whether or not to use "Editor notes" in the summaries?
[13:25] <@Dopefish> so far, Janrinok and girlwhowasplugged out satisfy this
[13:25] <@Dopefish> but I am actively scouting for more
[13:26] <@Dopefish> stderr: That is being discussed at a later date. I know we are tempering down the ED Notes to just be "correctional info only" and not tooting off opinions
[13:26] <@Dopefish> one time I was guilty for myself, but it's good to keep a level of consistency
[13:26] <@xlefay> Still, they appear unprofessional, best to just "fix" the story itself.
[13:26] <@mrcoolbp> that is the community concensus
[13:26] <@Dopefish> well here's the problem
[13:27] <@Dopefish> in the comments, we have a commenter with a problem with a chunk of the submission. One time I did a stealth change and everyone freaked out and wondered what we were talking about. Going forward, we might just stick to announcing corrections within the comments
[13:27] <@Dopefish> so that others aren't lost
[13:27] <@Dopefish> truly though, ED Notes should be used more sparingly if they ever are going to continue to be used
[13:28] <@kobach> very sparingly
[13:28] <@mrcoolbp> Anything else Dopefish?
[13:28] <@mrgirlpluggedout> Dopefish, that is a fitting use for the ED notes, imo.
[13:28] <@mattie_p> Are there any other questions for Dopefish?
[13:28] <@Barrabas> Someone suggested we have a way to flag stories as "breaking", meaning that they should jump to the head of the queue.
[13:28] <@NCommander> Eh, if we're going to be an original source for anything, is it really good to try and "be neutral" which often fails, and make it more explicately clear that articles frequently have a slant based on either the submittor os editor itself?
[13:28] <@Dopefish> mrgirlpluggedout: We will discuss how we will approach ED Notes at our editor meeting next Saturday
[13:28] <@xlefay> Dopefish: another way would be to fix the story and put an "Update: <note>" in the article. That's generally considered an acceptable way.
[13:28] <+stderr> I just hope we can keep the personal opinions of the editors out of the summaries. I have no problem with correcting information.
[13:29] <@martyb> stderr: agreed.
[13:29] <@Dopefish> thanks for the suggestion xlefay
[13:29] <@kobach> FoobarBazbot> long-term solution might be/include wiki-esque "view revisions"? so people can see what has been changed.
[13:29] <@kobach> could also work
[13:29] <@martyb> Sugestion if/when edited story, use "<del>" to flag removed text.
[13:29] <@xlefay> Let's just git' it all ;)
[13:29] <@paulej72> Dopefish is the plan to have your group vet all of the static content of the site when it need changed
[13:29] <@Cactus> Not for Dopefish, but about his dept, .. I'd like to see what people think about Editors vs Submitters. How much rewriting and expanding on a summary is acceptable?
[13:30] <@Cactus> for the editors to do
[13:30] <@mrcoolbp> barrabas: suggestion noted
[13:30] <@robind> as much as is required Cactus
[13:30] <@robind> sometimes multiple submissions will come in on the same story
[13:30] <@Dopefish> Cactus: We need to ensure that we are providing enough supporting evidence to back up a submission too
[13:30] <@robind> up to the editor to merge them together if necessary
[13:30] <+janrinok> I try to keep it as close to the submitter as possible
[13:30] <@LaminatorX> I have sometimes done some significant rewording of both headline and story wording.
[13:30] <@Dopefish> I have gotten quite a few comments complaining about the lack of alternate sources of information or perhaps quality information
[13:30] <@robind> for instance when we first opened it up I saw three submissions for the NIF story
[13:30] <+stderr> Cactus: Some of the submissions are just one liners at the moment. If those should run, they need to be expand.
[13:30] <@Cactus> I get that, but sometimes submitters frame a summary a certain way
[13:30] <@mrgirlpluggedout> robind, I've actually been following mattie_p's opinion - stay faithful as much as possible to the original submitter's own voice.
[13:30] <@Dopefish> yeah
[13:31] <@Cactus> stderr, obviously.
[13:31] <@robind> mrgirlpluggedout, but what to do when there are multiple submissions with different voices? submit the best one? pick and choose pieces?
[13:31] <@mechanicjay> yeah, at the same time, the advantage of the curated news feed is that I shouldn't have to wade through bad grammar and spelling in the summary.
[13:31] <@LaminatorX> Sometimes a great story can have a poorly written summary.
[13:31] <@Cactus> LaminatorX, So have I. But I've also seen a comment posted about rewriting the summary.
[13:32] <@Dopefish> I have a few more minutes. Does anyone have any last minute questions, comments or concerns?
[13:32] <@Landon> I do!
[13:32] <@mattie_p> and we got an email when one person asked for a copy of their original work when I made some edits
[13:32] <@mrgirlpluggedout> One option is to choose one, and give credit to the others within the post itself.
[13:32] <@Landon> What is the plan for the "pace: of stories in the long-term?
[13:32] <@mechanicjay> My take: I'm a sysadmin, not a writer. If you reword my summary to make me sound less retarded, I'll all for it.
[13:32] <@robind> haha agreed
[13:32] <+janrinok> Yes, we should make it clear that scraping other sites is not acceptable
[13:32] <@martyb> Cactus: We just need to set expctations correctly. A note in the submission page to the effect stories will be edited should suffice/help.
[13:32] <@mechanicjay> martyb ++
[13:32] <@xlefay> Landon: I second that question, I hope it'll pick up right now actually.
[13:32] <@Barrabas> mechanicjay: I'm with mechanicjay. The editors are the professionals.
[13:32] <@Cactus> Works for me. Just wanted everyone on the same page
[13:33] <@kobach> ladon++
[13:33] <@martyb> mattie_p: that was me; other ste had a link after story pointing at the original submission.
[13:33] <@Zapp> karma - ladon: 1
[13:33] <+stderr> Landon++
[13:33] <@Zapp> karma - landon: 2
[13:33] <@mrgirlpluggedout> And emphasize that cross-posting to other site, e.g. pipedot, is unacceptable. We have a few of those.
[13:33] <@kobach> whoops
[13:33] <+janrinok> we get quite a few which are copies fromn / . or |.
[13:33] <@Barrabas> martyb: ++
[13:33] <@Dopefish> lol
[13:33] <@audioguy> How about 'if in doubt' put an editors note a bottom explaing your choice.
[13:33] <@LaminatorX> I would rather edit a submission that has the potential to spark a great discussion, then let it sit idle in the bin because the writing is uneven.
[13:33] <@xlefay> mrgirlpluggedout: why isn't that acceptable? Aren't people free to post their take wherever they want?
[13:33] <@martyb> LaminatorX++
[13:33] <@Zapp> karma - laminatorx: 3
[13:33] <+stderr> mrgirlpluggedout: I don't agree with that at all.
[13:33] <@kobach> LaminatorX++
[13:33] <@Zapp> karma - laminatorx: 4
[13:33] <@LaminatorX> Or post something that's sketchily written.
[13:34] <@Landon> stderr: on the other hand, we don't want to publish something that's cross posted (and accepted) over on /.,|.
[13:34] <@mrgirlpluggedout> xlefay, stderr: Publishing the exact same text makes us look amateurish.
[13:34] <@mrgirlpluggedout> We appear to be copying other sites' material that way.
[13:34] <@xlefay> Landon: who really cares? If it's a good quality item, then why not?
[13:34] <@LaminatorX> We have people submitting to multiple sites.
[13:34] <@mrcoolbp> Cross posting shoud be "discouraged"
[13:34] <+stderr> Landon: True, if they run with the story before we do, we shouldn't run that story.
[13:35] <@Landon> xlefay: the appearance that we ripped off their submissions
[13:35] <@mrcoolbp> What about the PACE of stories? Thoughts on this?
[13:35] <@xlefay> But everyone knows "someone" submits it
[13:35] <@martyb> mrgirlpluggedout: I agree we don't want to even give the *impression* that we are taking from other sites.
[13:35] <@Barrabas> xlefay: It's legally dangerous. Also, it'll probably lose us readers.
[13:35] <@kobach> landon++
[13:35] <@Zapp> karma - landon: 3
[13:35] <@martyb> stderr++
[13:35] <@Zapp> karma - stderr: 1
[13:35] <@Cactus> Someone cross-post is different than someone poaching stories from other aggregators
[13:35] <@kobach> Barrabas++
[13:35] <@Zapp> karma - barrabas: 2
[13:35] <@mrgirlpluggedout> xlefay, stderr: So I have to Google their submissions to see if it had already been published elsewhere, hoping that it isn't in the queue in the other sites.
[13:35] <@Landon> Dopefish: re: pacing of stories? or have you left already :)
[13:35] <+janrinok> Cactus: how do you tell the difference?
[13:35] <+stderr> Barrabas: Why is it legally dangerous for me to post the same story to three (or more) sites?
[13:36] <@xlefay> So essentially, editors also have to check a boatload of other sides before a submission gets posted?
[13:36] <@Dopefish> no
[13:36] <@Dopefish> sorry
[13:36] <@Cactus> janrinok, No idea. It would probably require a lot of monitoring.
[13:36] <@LaminatorX> We can't monitor their upcoming releases. We and pipedot could hace the same story queued right now, for all we know.
[13:36] <+janrinok> Cactus: too much time involved - I;m racing now
[13:36] <@Cactus> Not sure it's something that can really be helped
[13:36] <@mattie_p> let's table the discussion on cross-posting now, we can come back to that
[13:36] <@mattie_p> I dno'
[13:36] <+stderr> xlefay: A boatload is currently 2 sites... :-)
[13:36] <@martyb> Link to the original submission with date/time stamp.
[13:36] <@Dopefish> pacing needs to be a consistent. In the past we stuck with an article every two hours minimum
[13:36] <@Barrabas> mrgirlpluggedout: Only for word-for-word summaries. We can report the same stories, but in our own (submitter's) words.
[13:36] <@mechanicjay> stderr, it's legally dangerous for us. Depending on the TOS of other sites. Site A claims copywrite to all submitted material. SN, published same summary an hour later. Infringement case?
[13:36] <@mrgirlpluggedout> How can we differentiate one anonymous coward that submits his own material to a number of sites, and another who scrapes it, xlefay?
[13:36] <@mattie_p> I don't want this staff meeting to take all day
[13:36] <@xlefay> stderr: I realize that, but... it'll get extended eventually, etc..
[13:36] <@Cactus> janrinok, I'm not arguing for, or against. Just sayin'.
[13:36] <@Dopefish> we need to give everyone a chance to comment on the submission and really let it soak in
[13:37] <@Dopefish> that's really it. And it's a formula we will be tweaking over time.
[13:37] <+stderr> mechanicjay: Evidence 1: Submitted by the same user, case closed.
[13:37] <@xlefay> mrgirlpluggedout: we're an aggregator are we not?
[13:37] <@mrgirlpluggedout> Not of other aggregators.
[13:37] <@Dopefish> anyway I do need to head out. Very sorry to cut so short
[13:37] <@Cactus> Of course, as it's been said ... The commenting communit is really what makes the site, no tthe stories.
[13:37] <@mattie_p> Thanks, Dopefish
[13:37] <@martyb> Dopefish: thanks!
[13:37] <@mrcoolbp> Thank you dopefish
[13:37] <@mrgirlpluggedout> Thanks, Dopefish
[13:37] <@Dopefish> thanks everyone for the opportunity to speak!
[13:37] <+janrinok> thx
[13:37] <@Cactus> Later, Dopefish
[13:38] <@mattie_p> OK, my turn
[13:38] <@kobach> cya Dopefish
[13:38] <@mrcoolbp> --==Topic is now: Mattie's Turn==--
[13:38] <@xlefay> Barrabas: was an actual lawyer consulted on this? If so then it's open and shut if not.. then I would ask we revisit this topic in a later meeting.
[13:38] <@xlefay> ciao Dopefish.
[13:38] <+stderr> If we don't allow submissions to other site, I'm sure some people won't submit stories to us.
[13:38] <@mattie_p> As the general manager, I see my role as helping the process of the site to go smoothly
[13:38] <@mrcoolbp> xlefay: suggestion to revisit noted
[13:38] <@Barrabas> xlefay: Agreed.
[13:39] <@mattie_p> I'll be working with group overlords on specific projects that cross outside their group
[13:39] <@mrgirlpluggedout> stderr, try submitting the same exact article to two different newspapers.
[13:39] <@mattie_p> I know that everyone has been running their own show up til now
[13:39] <+stderr> mrgirlpluggedout: Been there, done that...
[13:39] <@mrgirlpluggedout> Sorry :)
[13:39] <@mattie_p> and some of the projects will go outside your own group for a decision
[13:39] <@mattie_p> I see it as my role to ensure that everyone is kept informed of those
[13:40] <@mattie_p> and to attempt to get consensus where there is difference of opinion
[13:40] <@mattie_p> In general, I will stay out of your project areas, except to get status updates
[13:40] <@mattie_p> and to find out where you need help
[13:40] <@xlefay> Question 1: What happens if you're away, ill or otherwise for whatever reason unavailable? What's the proper procedure?
[13:41] <@mattie_p> Nothing I do is going to be life or death critical if I'm not here, I don't think
[13:41] <@mattie_p> its not like I'm installing critical security updates or anything
[13:41] <@Barrabas> Don't mind me - I only sell shrimp out of a van.
[13:41] <@Landon> xlefay: put the 2 overlords in the thunderdome
[13:41] <@mattie_p> but if something needs to happen, then bump it up to Barrabas
[13:42] <@martyb> Sounds good.
[13:42] <@xlefay> mattie_p: the unexpected can always happen, e.g. surely, these things have to be considered
[13:42] <@martyb> question...
[13:42] <@mattie_p> but I'm trying to do management so Barrabas can focus on big picture stuff
[13:42] <@xlefay> Even more important, how is the community involved in these projects? How can they provide feedback, etc?
[13:42] <@Barrabas> xlefay: By joining the projects.
[13:43] <@mattie_p> we've got the suggestions@soylent mailbox, wiki, forums, etc
[13:43] <@martyb> Is there a stream of what's in the queue of what needs to be worked on across all groups?
[13:43] <@mrcoolbp> ^^^^^
[13:43] <@mattie_p> martyb, I'm working on gathering that
[13:43] <@mattie_p> That is part of what this meeting is about
[13:43] <@mattie_p> for each group to communicate what they are working on
[13:43] <@mattie_p> in public
[13:43] <@audioguy> what martyb says
[13:44] <@martyb> sometimes I've got some time available and would like to help out. If I could see what's in queue, take ownership and run with it, I think that would be a big win.
[13:44] <@mattie_p> Any more questions for me?
[13:44] <@Barrabas> OK, should I give my status then?
[13:44] <@audioguy> There is a proposal on the tabel to use one one of the dev soylents as a stff soylent.
[13:44] <@Barrabas> stff?
[13:44] <@xlefay> "stff"?
[13:44] <@Landon> staff
[13:44] <@audioguy> staff
[13:44] <+kobach> rofl
[13:44] <@xlefay> .. lol
[13:44] <@mrcoolbp> --==Topic is now: Questions for Mattie_p==--
[13:45] <@martyb> There's also a proposal to call it slashcoot.org ;-)
[13:45] <+kobach> mattie_p: how are you today?
[13:45] <@xlefay> audioguy: what's that supposed to mean?
[13:45] <@mattie_p> I'm fine :)
[13:45] <+janrinok> you mention wiki, forums etc - who pulls it into one place and where is that place?
[13:45] <+kobach> hello?
[13:45] <@xlefay> audioguy: oh you mean server... nvm
[13:45] <@audioguy> That it may provide a means for solving the problem mentined by marty
[13:45] <@Barrabas> To expand, the proposal is to have a newsfeed where staff put summaries of their tasks and actions.
[13:46] <@mrcoolbp> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[13:46] <@xlefay> Essentially a global bug tracker/project mgmt (like redmine) where projects are also featured, etc...?
[13:46] <@LaminatorX> That would be helpfull. Look at the moderator forum on rpg.net for an example.
[13:46] <@martyb> Barrabas: Yes!
[13:46] <@mechanicjay> When, I first heard the propsal, I wasn't sure, but it's kind of growing on me.
[13:46] <@Barrabas> mechanicjay: ^^^^
[13:47] <@mrcoolbp> Mattie_p do you have anything else for now?
[13:47] <@mattie_p> Essentially we have a communication problem with the way individual tasks and projects are tracked. We want to choose a single way to track that info
[13:47] <@LaminatorX> I've cleaned some spam off the forum and dropped a few banns, but I have no idea if other admins have done similar.
[13:47] <@audioguy> We KNOW there are commnication problems, I am suggesting that we discuss that first, as it may provide the solution, instead of having many small discussions about communication
[13:47] <@LaminatorX> Collaberating, we could spot patterns.
[13:47] <@mattie_p> mrcoolbp, just this discussion
[13:47] <@xlefay> audioguy: I agree with that
[13:48] <@Cactus> I've heard rumors of mailing lists being rolled out, that will help some, no?
[13:48] <@xlefay> Cactus: Indeed, that'll help "some"
[13:48] <@mrcoolbp> So I move to vote: Do we like having something similar to what slashcott is doing now for the in-facing community?
[13:48] <@mattie_p> audioguy, no just confirming what you said. We need a solution for a single place, staff slashcode is one option for collaboration
[13:48] <@xlefay> mrcoolbp: what are they doing?
[13:48] <@Barrabas> mattie_p: Publicly readable?
[13:48] <@audioguy> Information about this is here for any who have not yet seen it: http : //slashcott.org/ first few articles.
[13:49] <@mattie_p> Barrabas yes
[13:49] <@martyb> mattie_p: I concur we need a central top-level starting point under which everything else can be located.
[13:49] <+kobach> perhaps forum sections for everyone?
[13:49] <@mrcoolbp> like a second soylent as a vehicle for communication/comment among staff as per matties, barrabas et. al. suggestoins
[13:49] <@xlefay> How about we just set up redmine or something similar? So whichever team can also use the bug tracker utilities for it's projects, etc?
[13:49] <@LaminatorX> Slash actually isn't that great a too for that, IMO.
[13:49] <@Barrabas> mattie_p: And no literary requirements. Bad grammar, uneven writing is OK since it's purpose is internal communication. Yes?
[13:49] <@xlefay> Then have the home page of such an instance feature news...
[13:49] <@mattie_p> This HAS to be publicly viewable, otherwise how will volunteers find out?
[13:50] <@mrcoolbp> ^^^^^^^^^
[13:50] <@audioguy> NOT publicly readable. For staff. staff has to deal with some things that should not be public.
[13:50] <@martyb> slashcott with a different "section" for each dept; and a master one with summaries, pointers, and updated.
[13:50] <@mrcoolbp> So maybe a public portoin and a private portion....
[13:50] <@xlefay> audioguy: please do describe what.
[13:50] <@LaminatorX> The forum can already do seperate public and private sections.
[13:50] <@mattie_p> ^^
[13:50] <+janrinok> mattie_p: how do the public track what we are doing
[13:51] <+janrinok> we want to include them - so lets
[13:51] <@mattie_p> janrinok, right now they don't, people just kind of get the message out haphazardly
[13:51] <@mechanicjay> right, publically available mean being transparent.
[13:51] <@paulej72> without access to the logs from the irc channels the info here is only temproary
[13:51] <@LaminatorX> There is a closed Editors section, for instance, where we were discussing editor candidates.
[13:51] <+janrinok> not good enough yet then
[13:51] <@Barrabas> audioguy: I can only think of a few things that shouldn't be public, none of them related to projects.
[13:51] <@mrcoolbp> So the forum might be a good place for this, I just liked the idea of comment moderation being implemented... Forums can be long-winded
[13:51] <@mattie_p> anything that needs to be behind closed doors has to have a good reason
[13:51] <@mattie_p> we'll figure that out on a case-by-case basis
[13:51] <@xlefay> I don't like the forum idea though.
[13:51] <+janrinok> ^^
[13:51] <@mechanicjay> mattie_p: Default open on information
[13:51] <@audioguy> In the future, there could be things like personnel problems which have a legal aspect. There may be discussions of thigs like banning people. Security concerns. Many more it you think about it.
[13:51] <@mattie_p> mechanicjay yes
[13:51] <@mrcoolbp> For me this comminication issue should be # 1 priority
[13:52] <@martyb> I don't care for the forum, either. I like the idea of moderation facilitating skimming.
[13:52] <@FunPika> If we want to be default open to the public, then how often should we be using this channel then that the public can't even see?
[13:52] <@xlefay> Can we please consider a more "global" alternative?
[13:52] <@Barrabas> audioguy: That's the ones I was thinking of.
[13:52] <@audioguy> WE have such a channel now, IRC staff, right?
[13:52] <@mattie_p> FunPika, we're transmitting this meeting, warts and all, to #Soylent
[13:52] <@mrcoolbp> hahaha
[13:52] <+kobach> FunPika: maybe we can setup a permanent relay to #staffrelay
[13:52] <@xlefay> FunPika: this channel isn't perse for staff discussions although it does happen occassionally, actually, this is simply a "lounge" of sorts fothe crew
[13:52] <@FunPika> But after this meeting? Won't the relay be off?
[13:53] <@xlefay> least.. that's the general idea
[13:53] <@mrcoolbp> is it possible we should take some kind of non-binding vote to see what method of communication is preffered?
[13:53] <@mattie_p> good idea
[13:53] <@mattie_p> we need to move on anyway
[13:54] <@martyb> We can crosspost from internal slash dev site to public and solicit comments there. we hash out obvious deficiencies and then solicit feedback/perspective from the community instead of putting out half-baked stuff for discussion.
[13:54] <@audioguy> I want to feel completely free to say anything there, without concern that it will go out to the entire world. I want to feel free to put accesses to systems I do not want every hacker in the world to see. Remember when you say open, it is not just to 'friends'
[13:54] <@xlefay> .. in any case, I vote against the forum and for something more globally usable such as redmine.
[13:54] <@mattie_p> Proposal, which method is preffered: Forum, Staff Slash, Wiki, or other?
[13:54] <@LaminatorX> Suggestion: IRC for realtime discussion, forum for non-realtime, wiki for publishing results.
[13:54] <@martyb> audioguy++
[13:54] <@Zapp> karma - audioguy: 2
[13:54] <@xlefay> mattie_p: redmine...
[13:54] <@Cactus> Does inter-department communication need to be the same as community-facing communication?
[13:54] <@mrcoolbp> --==Vote: Forum, Staff Slash, Wiki, or other?==--
[13:55] <@martyb> xlefay:
[13:55] <+kobach> hold on i dont know
[13:55] <+stderr> mattie_p: Preferred for what exactly?
[13:55] <@mechanicjay> abstain -- need more info on proposals for how each would work.
[13:55] <@Landon> audioguy: this is interesting, because all of the team channels are public, it's purely this one that's not
[13:55] <+kobach> i have to figure out what redmine is
[13:55] <@NCommander> abstain
[13:55] <@LaminatorX> I also suggest avaiding email as much as we can. It silos things.
[13:55] <@martyb> never used redmine. dk about that.
[13:55] <@mattie_p> stderr: to communicate about group projects, both internal initiatives and larger proposals
[13:55] <@mrgirlpluggedout> Other: a system like Redmine.
[13:55] <+janrinok> abstain
[13:55] <@mattie_p> keep a permanent record
[13:55] <@xlefay> mrgirlpluggedout: that's what I've been saying
[13:55] <@audioguy> BNote that I DO feel most of what is there should be open. But in another place.
[13:55] <@Barrabas> LaminatorX: I vote for LaminatorX
[13:55] <@martyb> leaning toward staff-slash, but abstain for now.
[13:55] <@Barrabas> LaminatorX: I vote for LaminatorX
[13:55] <@FunPika> abstain
[13:55] <@Landon> other, but maybe staff slash
[13:55] <@audioguy> Like the wiki, or similar.
[13:55] <+kobach> LaminatorX: i vote for LaminatorX
[13:56] <@Barrabas> LaminatorX: I vote for LaminatorX's proposal. (damn keyboard!)
[13:56] <+stderr> mattie_p: Can you split that in two votes? One for each?
[13:56] <@mrgirlpluggedout> xlefay, I was voicing my agreement :)
[13:56] <@paulej72> I am voting for LaminatorX's proposal
[13:56] <@Cactus> Yeah, LamX
[13:56] <@xlefay> mrgirlpluggedout: cool.. doesn't seem like this is going anywhere tho :/
[13:56] <@mattie_p> stderr which proposal needs to be split in two?
[13:56] <+kobach> " IRC for realtime discussion, forum for non-realtime, wiki for publishing results."
[13:56] <+stderr> <mattie_p> stderr: to communicate about group projects, both internal initiatives and larger proposals
[13:56] <@xlefay> I suggest something on which we can vote for these sorta things... ;')
[13:57] <@mrcoolbp> no votes for slash eh?
[13:57] <@NCommander> we need a meeting script
[13:57] <@martyb> kobach: Yes, for now I can get behind that. With crossposting to soytlentnes.org periodically
[13:57] <@mrcoolbp> VOTE SLASH
[13:57] <@xlefay> mrcoolbp: NO.
[13:57] <@mrgirlpluggedout> I'd like to see something structured. I do, however, agree that, since realtime chat is important, IRC is the right medium for it. for r
[13:57] <@mrcoolbp> lol
[13:57] <@Landon> !todo meeting plug
[13:57] <@Zapp> todo item 23 added
[13:57] <@LaminatorX> Forum can do polls, with the rught plugins.
[13:57] <@mattie_p> NCommander I'm trying to keep it going, but this is good discussion right now and needs to be said
[13:57] <@audioguy> Vote for Laminator.
[13:57] <+kobach> forums are structured
[13:57] <+kobach> and have polls
[13:57] <@xlefay> But do forums allow us to do bug tracking and stuff?
[13:57] <@FunPika> weird...phpbb needs plugins to do polls? Thought it had those by default
[13:57] <@mechanicjay> personally, since I"ve been in the Channel, I havn't been back to the forum. It's just one more thing to check. If the idea is unification of communication, than three spots for discussion is orthogonal to that goal.
[13:57] <+janrinok> ^^^
[13:57] <@xlefay> I really do vote to keep all that stuff together, it'll make things so much simpler for all of us..
[13:58] <+kobach> FunPika: other forums need plugins sometimes
[13:58] <@Landon> xlefay: do we want our primary communications channel to be a bug tracker? that seems less than ideal
[13:58] <+kobach> mechanicjay: same, i dont even have an account on the forum
[13:58] <@Cactus> I'm for what LaminatorX said. The reasons we have those 3 things set is pretty much for the reasons LaminatorX stated, correct?
[13:58] <@mrcoolbp> ---===Point of Order- Vote reveal we are completely devided on this===---
[13:58] <@mrcoolbp> I move to move on
[13:58] <@mrcoolbp> for now
[13:58] <@mattie_p> I agree
[13:58] <@xlefay> Landon: no, you haven't been reading. I'm suggesting something like Redmine because it has multiple features that we can use, including communications.
[13:58] <@mattie_p> we'll table for now and re-address
[13:58] <+stderr> Landon: Especially if it's anything like the current bugtracker... I hate that thing...
[13:58] <@mechanicjay> Cactus: Yes, and we should figure out a better way, not just do itbecause it's what we're doing.
[13:58] <@Barrabas> Let's make mrcoolbp the overlord of communications, and have him take opinions and requests and come up with a comprehensive plan.
[13:58] <@mattie_p> Alright
[13:58] <@martyb> I vote to table for now.
[13:59] <@mechanicjay> Barrabas: ++
[13:59] <@mattie_p> Barrabas he already is on my org charty
[13:59] <@mattie_p> *chart, can't spell
[13:59] <@audioguy> By forum I meant slashcode
[13:59] <@mattie_p> OK, I'd like to go back to the group overlords right now and their reps
[13:59] <@LaminatorX> Parting thought on this, part of the problem with the seperate tools is co-ordinating logins and such. LDAP or the like might really help.
[13:59] <@martyb> LaminatorX: good point.
[14:00] <@FunPika> agreed
[14:00] <@mechanicjay> LaminatorX: that's in the works
[14:00] <@mattie_p> NCommander is up, can you give us a quick rundown right now on where you are at and what is coming up?
[14:00] <@mrcoolbp> ---===Topic is now: DEV===---
[14:00] <@mrcoolbp> ---===Ncommander has the floor===---
[14:00] <@FunPika> I'm pretty sure at least Atheme and MediaWiki have existing plugins/extensions to deal with LDAP.
[14:00] <@xlefay> FunPika: yeah and atheme works great with it!
[14:01] <@xlefay> LDAP has to stop once and services freezes up ;)
[14:01] <@NCommander> So, right now, we've got slash running on two linodes
[14:01] <@NCommander> We've got most of the CSS and HTML more or less sorted, and happy
[14:01] <@NCommander> There are a couple of large issues however in the near future
[14:02] <@NCommander> First, we're on an antique and dilapidated version of Apache that was outdated five years ago
[14:02] <@NCommander> And we're tied to that due to Slash depending on mod_perl 1.3
[14:03] <@NCommander> I've looked into what it will take to get us to mod_perl 2 or 2.2, and it doesn't seem *difficult*, just tedious. I've got the development VM, and a decent set of instructions that document how shit goes together, so I get a reasonable idea of what it takes
[14:03] <@NCommander> However, we don't have anyone full time on dev who has stepped up to do this, so this is slotted around my "time available" basis which has been rather small as of the last week, and will be essentially non-existent this week
[14:03] <@NCommander> (for those who don't know, I'm currently in Macau, China, for my job)
[14:04] <@mrcoolbp> BTW I have a volunteer with PERL experience
[14:04] <@Barrabas> NCommander: Sleep deprived? Jet lagged? :-)
[14:04] <@xlefay> mind you /me's aren't being relayed.
[14:04] <@NCommander> mrcoolbp, perl, not PERL, and send them my way
[14:05] <@NCommander> Barrabas, I'm mostly on local time now, but LinaroConnect is something of a meatgrinder. Get up, attend conferences, sleep
[14:05] <+stderr> NCommander: I'm on vacation from the 3rd to the 9th of this month. What do you need me to look at?
[14:05] <@NCommander> stderr, so mod_perl has a compat module for 1.3, but the support isn't 100%
[14:06] <@NCommander> There's some initialization code doen in Apache that is run as part of slash startup. YOu can set the compat mode there, and see how much shit still goes *SNAP*
[14:06] <@NCommander> You'll however have to still compile apache, mod_perl, and the dependency chain from scratch; Slash still has enough oddness that would not trust distribution packages to work properly at this time
[14:07] <+stderr> Ok. I'll see what I can do.
[14:07] <@NCommander> For a more longer term thing, we need to also focus work on the template engine
[14:08] <@NCommander> RIght now, we're in the ugly situation where that if we want to have multiple skins, it requires multiple vhosts (and its clear the other site has this limitation due to classic/beta being a thing)
[14:08] <@Barrabas> mattie_p: (Later in the meeting, can we discuss ways of getting more volunteers?)
[14:08] <@mattie_p> Barrabas, yes, that is part of general discussion towards the end
[14:08] <@NCommander> Now a lot of thing I think we can fix, but parts of the theming code needs refactoring, and relocation to the database
[14:08] <@mattie_p> I want to get in public record ever groups projects, so we know what they are, then volunteers can work on helping
[14:08] <@NCommander> That's also an incidentlly low hanging fruit; none of the theme stuff is cached, and hits the DB *every* page load
[14:09] <@NCommander> (it is cached on the mysql server, but that still causes network traffic across internal LANs)
[14:10] <@NCommander> As for features, I'd like to get the discussion system out of 1997
[14:10] <@NCommander> Basically, be able to expand/collaspe comments without a page load.
[14:10] <@NCommander> I know the greasemonkey script exists, and we have soem JS code already existant to do this
[14:10] <+stderr> The code I wrote?
[14:10] <@NCommander> That has to be intergrated properly into Slashcode, and has to make sure we fall back gracefully for users who don't want JS (which appear to be considerale)
[14:10] <@NCommander> stderr, sí
[14:11] <@xlefay> Who measured that and how?
[14:11] <@Barrabas> NCommander: I think MrBluze said there's a way to do that entirely with CSS.
[14:11] <@Cactus> xlefay, The JS hate?
[14:11] <@LaminatorX> JS dependance was a significant Fuck Beta factor.
[14:11] <@NCommander> Its just sloppy if you make a page that is mostly static depend on JS
[14:11] <@mattie_p> I got some comments on the google doc I published about JS as well
[14:12] <@paulej72> I looked into the css option and it will not work for current browsers
[14:12] <@Barrabas> LaminatorX: Agreed. I'm against lots of JS, although for little "really convenient" things like open/collapse it's probably OK.
[14:12] <@audioguy> Correct
[14:12] <@xlefay> paulej72: it surely won't.
[14:12] <@NCommander> The site works properly with Lynx and to a lesser extent NCSA Mosiac. I'm now saying that should be our gold standard, but we should work well for users who have vision impartment
[14:12] <@Cactus> The anti-JS people are pretty vocal. I don't know if I've seen anyone come out say they *like* JS.
[14:12] <@xlefay> Well I do.
[14:12] <@NCommander> and either have to use a screen-reader, or text-only browser
[14:12] <@audioguy> There is a way to 'sort of' do it. It is not user friendly.
[14:12] <+stderr> Barrabas: And "in line" commenting.
[14:12] <@LaminatorX> Should be ok as long as failover to no-JS is graceful.
[14:12] <@xlefay> As far as the "we don't like JS" goes, let's get actual numbers.
[14:13] <@xlefay> If 10.000 people read SN daily.. and <1% doesn't like a little bit JS..
[14:13] <@NCommander> (or user provided CSS)
[14:14] <@mrcoolbp> Hate to interrupt - I must be leaving in 5 minutes
[14:14] <@martyb> NCommander: with Barrabas' vision, we'll have many people using adaptive tech; we'll need to be compliant.
[14:14] <@NCommander> martyb, right, most sites aren't
[14:14] <@NCommander> We're complaint on sheer dumb luck
[14:14] <@audioguy> Agree strongly with NCommander
[14:14] <@NCommander> Slashcode pretty much predates anything that would make us complaint
[14:14] <@xlefay> I agree with being compliant, but please, let's not be inconvenient
[14:14] <@NCommander> The CAPTCHA engine was disabled on these grounds as well
[14:14] <+stderr> I think most of the JS hate is about useless, often 3rd-party stuff that tries to track people. Useful stuff _with a decent fallback for non-JS browsers_ doesn't get that much hate at all.
[14:14] <@NCommander> xlefay, <noscript> tags exist for a reason. As long as we're not stupid, doing graceful fallback isn't hard.
[14:14] <@xlefay> stderr++ agreed
[14:15] <@Zapp> karma - stderr: 2
[14:15] <+stderr> If people can see _why_ it's useful, they don't hate it as much...
[14:15] <@martyb> NCommander++
[14:15] <@NCommander> D2 was an example of doing it stupid
[14:15] <@Zapp> karma - ncommander: 1
[14:15] <@audioguy> Js hate is about sites forcing me to run code on MY computer.
[14:15] <@xlefay> NCommander: agreed
[14:15] <@NCommander> The basic litmus test for accessibility
[14:15] <@xlefay> That's the general idea about JS..
[14:15] <@NCommander> 1. Will this work if CSS is disaled
[14:15] <@NCommander> 2. Will it work if JS is disabled
[14:15] <@Barrabas> NCommander: Sounds good. People complain mostly about tracking, and loading multiple huge JS libraries.
[14:15] <@NCommander> 3. Will it work if its text only
[14:15] <@NCommander> Barrabas, we're not completely innocent on that
[14:15] <@Cactus> The anti-JS crowd is a minority on the 'net at large, but a lot of the JS Haters are in our community.
[14:15] <@NCommander> We do use jquery in places, and backslash requires it
[14:16] <@xlefay> Barrabas: that's just overstatement. Most "huge" libraries get compressed and aren't more than 1 - 3 kb big..
[14:16] <@mrcoolbp> I'm out, goodbye all
[14:16] <+kobach> cya
[14:16] <@martyb> bye!
[14:16] <@NCommander> xlefay, disagree hugely. jquery is 4/5ths of our pageload size at the moment
[14:16] <@mrgirlpluggedout> Many people dislike JS for three reason: Slow, Sluggish, Superfluous.
[14:16] <+janrinok> bye
[14:16] <@xlefay> NCommander: a compressed version of jQuery?
[14:16] <@audioguy> And jquery, like all such things is a hack magnet.
[14:16] <@mrgirlpluggedout> g'bye
[14:16] <@NCommander> xlefay, if we could scrap it completely, we'd be dialup friendly
[14:16] <@LaminatorX> JS for back-office work is very different than JS for core user functions.
[14:16] <@xlefay> audioguy: excuse me, where are you basing that on?
[14:16] <@NCommander> xlefay, even compressed, it adds a shitton of the load size
[14:17] <@mrcoolbp> goodbye all
[14:17] <@mrcoolbp> someone please email me the logs
[14:17] <+kobach> bye
[14:17] <@xlefay> NCommander: which version?!
[14:17] <@mrgirlpluggedout> If our use of JS doesn't fall into one of those criteria, then it is certainly warranted imo.
[14:17] <@audioguy> Becasue it is so popular, it is a good target. Lie Windows is very popular, so becomes a target.
[14:17] <@mattie_p> If I may interject, the JS discussion is interesting, however, let's get back to the overall topic
[14:17] <@NCommander> xlefay, one of the older ones. 1.3.2 I think?
[14:18] <@xlefay> latest jquery = 94.1kb..
[14:18] <@mrgirlpluggedout> And you're always going to have people that despise a certain technology in a community like ours.
[14:18] <@mattie_p> Have a few more group updates to get to
[14:18] <+kobach> bacon++
[14:18] <@Zapp> karma - bacon: 9
[14:18] <@audioguy> I like using out own, unique code since it means someone would have to specific target us.
[14:18] <@NCommander> mrgirlpluggedout, there's a different between forcing people to use it, or not
[14:18] <@mattie_p> Any other discussion items, NCommander?
[14:18] <@NCommander> While I *hate* to use this example, apple.com is a site where fallback happens *very* gracefully
[14:18] <@NCommander> mattie_p, yes
[14:18] <@mrgirlpluggedout> NCommander, for the record, I'd rather have my Soylent fast than Shiny.
[14:18] <+kobach> same
[14:18] <@xlefay> I disagree audioguy, there's a good reason for using jQuery and such. Those libraries are actually designed to make our work easier and to be compatible with multiple browsers. Why bother creating something new if it works fine and has a proven track record?
[14:19] <@NCommander> On the moderationg system, known open issue. I've got my stat emails, I'll have a item go up something this week about getting feedback. In the short, I know the large sticking points, but I got pegged really badly by jetlag
[14:19] <@audioguy> The js problem is not just on our site, it is the fact that if a majority of sites force you to use it to even view the site, the user no longer has a choice.
[14:19] <+stderr> xlefay: Maybe just copy the useful parts of jQuery, not the entire library.
[14:19] <@xlefay> We're talking about our site though.
[14:19] <@NCommander> We need to decide what the dev infrastructure will be
[14:19] <@xlefay> stderr: there's also another suggestion for a library: http : //zeptojs.com/
[14:20] <@NCommander> Right now, we've got the bugtracker on fusionforge, but the development itself on github
[14:20] <@xlefay> 9.2k..
[14:20] <@mrgirlpluggedout> Mind running the main issues by us, NCommander?
[14:20] <@NCommander> This is something of an unfortunate split, so I'd like a vote to decommision fusionforge all together, and move to the github issue tracker
[14:20] <@Landon> I'm for it
[14:20] <@NCommander> mrgirlpluggedout, the original idea is we'd selfhost our git repos and such on dev.soylentnews.org
[14:20] <@NCommander> That idea appears to fell apart, and most of our devs perfer github
[14:20] <+stderr> I hate the current bug tracker, so killing it with fire seems fine with me. :-)
[14:21] <@NCommander> So the bugtracker is in an infrastructure is kinda overkill
[14:21] <@xlefay> Didn't we just talk about the vision itself.. about hosting stuff ourselves? How does this compare to anything else? (just curious...)
[14:21] <@robind> NCommander, I thought the point of the fusioforge tracker was so that people could submit general usability type bugs there
[14:21] <@NCommander> robind, the point was to have all development there
[14:21] <@NCommander> github won out of it, and I eventually mvoed production to point back to the github master repo
[14:21] <@xlefay> (mind you, I'm all for throwing fusionforge away)
[14:21] <@Barrabas> I polled the devs at about that time. They all said GitHub was sufficient, and there'd be no benefir in our hosting the repo.
[14:22] <@robind> bit of work moving all those bugs over from fusionforge. oh well.
[14:22] <@NCommander> Fusionforge was setup under the original vision
[14:22] <@NCommander> Just proven to be too much a PITA
[14:22] <@mattie_p> when is this going to take place?
[14:22] <@NCommander> mattie_p, not clear. I might be able to cook a script up to do it
[14:22] <@robind> that would be nice.
[14:22] <@NCommander> Otherwise, I'll do it by hand, and let me close any bugs we've already resolved
[14:22] <@robind> but then everyone will have to register on github
[14:22] <@NCommander> There's some low hanging fruit in there
[14:22] <@NCommander> robind, well, that gets me to my next point
[14:22] <@NCommander> :-)
[14:22] <@mattie_p> sure, go for it
[14:23] <@xlefay> I'm fairly sure most people are already on Github ;)
[14:23] <@NCommander> I've been watching on the ground, and we *really* need to have the ability for single-signoff across all our services
[14:23] <@NCommander> Forums, wiki, slash, dev
[14:23] <@robind> xlefay, devs maybe but probably not users
[14:23] <@xlefay> Unfortunately that's probably true
[14:23] <@NCommander> Slash has code to be an OpenID consumer (which is broken, and disabled)
[14:23] <@robind> yeah that would be nice. seems a trick though.
[14:23] <@xlefay> OpenID? Yay...
[14:23] <@NCommander> xlefay, sacarism or ?
[14:24] <@xlefay> Yes, I for one will not be using that.
[14:24] <@NCommander> xlefay, what are your issues with openid?
[14:24] <@LaminatorX> BRB switching devices.
[14:24] <@audioguy> I will not use openid.
[14:24] <@Barrabas> NCommander: Could we have a separate service for SSO? Something that sets a cookie that the other services see?
[14:24] <@robind> yeah openid is so 10 years ago
[14:24] <@mattie_p> I don't think we have to
[14:24] <@xlefay> NCommander: then you already know. How can we be sure this one _will be different_?
[14:24] <@NCommander> Barrabas, which is openid
[14:24] <@NCommander> Ok, give me a second to explain, please?
[14:24] <@xlefay> Sure ;)
[14:24] <@mattie_p> please
[14:25] <@NCommander> Who here uses Facebook login service, or Ubuntu single-signon?
[14:25] <+kobach> nein
[14:25] <@Landon> o/
[14:25] <+janrinok> no
[14:25] <@Cactus> Not I
[14:25] <@xlefay> 0
[14:25] <@martyb> no
[14:25] <@mattie_p> nope to both
[14:25] <@FunPika> Neither
[14:25] <@Barrabas> nyet
[14:25] <@paulej72> no
[14:25] <@mechanicjay> not me, out of philisophical objection.
[14:25] <@NCommander> .... well, there goes my point in flames
[14:25] <@Landon> oh... juts me I guess
[14:25] <@Cactus> lol
[14:25] <@Landon> just*
[14:25] <@FunPika> And avoiding Facebook if at all possible...that is the last company that I want to give any information whatsoever to
[14:25] <@NCommander> Probably a bad example
[14:25] <+janrinok> lol
[14:25] <@NCommander> Facebook eats information, but its login service "just works"
[14:25] <@Barrabas> NCommander: Know your audience, dude... know your audience.
[14:25] <@Cactus> Still need to have a FB account, no?
[14:26] <+janrinok> will not use!
[14:26] <@NCommander> Barrabas, jetlag speaking. I've bene on plains and boats for 30+ hours
[14:26] <@mechanicjay> then FB gets a auth relay request, knowing when you auth to the external site.
[14:26] <@NCommander> :-P
[14:26] <@NCommander> *planes and boats
[14:26] <@NCommander> Ok
[14:26] <+kobach> i think that proved its own point there
[14:26] <@mattie_p> ok, lets table this for now, OpenID and the like will allow us SSO, but it won't be necessary
[14:26] <@xlefay> how about a car analogy?
[14:27] <@NCommander> The point here is that if properly implemented, openid is completely transparent. YOu have your email @soylentnews.org, and then its shared across everything without having to deal with the stupid BS of knowning your identify server
[14:27] <@martyb> NCommander: Anonymous Cowards? How do we protect submitters anonymity and thus get scoops (in line with Barrabas' vision)
[14:27] <@NCommander> it also allows the staff to control privellege levels in one location, and not 50
[14:27] <@paulej72> NCommander: we would run our own openId server?
[14:27] <@xlefay> NCommander: if you guarantee it'll be properly implemented, I'll use it.
[14:27] <+kobach> same
[14:28] <@NCommander> paulej72, yes, using the slash database as the backend
[14:28] <@martyb> xlefay: likewise
[14:28] <+kobach> DING
[14:28] <+kobach> pizza++
[14:28] <@Zapp> karma - pizza: 1
[14:28] <+janrinok> yes
[14:28] <@NCommander> What your slash username is will be the same across all soylent services
[14:28] <@FunPika> would openid be able to work with IRC?
[14:28] <+stderr> kobach: With bacon?
[14:28] <@xlefay> Although, guys, we are having a single point of failure here now
[14:28] <+kobach> stderr: no:(bacon all got ate last night
[14:28] <@Landon> FunPika: with some module creation :)
[14:28] <+kobach> by me :D
[14:28] <@NCommander> xlefay, TBH, if the site is down due slash going to lunch, we're kinda fucked anyway
[14:28] <+stderr> kobach: NOOOooo...
[14:28] <@Landon> right now the only external auth module is LDAP
[14:28] <@Barrabas> The overall issue is that we would like SSO. We don't need to decide how that's implemented right this second, but it sounds like NCommander's got it under control.
[14:28] <@xlefay> FunPika: probably not
[14:29] <@NCommander> Barrabas, agreed, table the discussion for now.
[14:29] <@audioguy> With running our own opnid server, No outside services, I would be willing to use openid.
[14:29] <@xlefay> NCommander: haha I was referring to you :P everyone will use if you vouch for it haha just joking ;)
[14:29] <+kobach> stderr: it is supreme though, pepperoni+sausage can make up for it!
[14:29] <@NCommander> audioguy, that would be the plan (mostly, I'd like if people signed into github via openid so I can set the permissions via openid paramaters)
[14:29] <+stderr> pizza++
[14:29] <@Zapp> karma - pizza: 2
[14:29] <+stderr> bacon++
[14:29] <@Zapp> karma - bacon: 10
[14:29] <@martyb> pig--
[14:29] <@Zapp> karma - pig: -1
[14:29] <@NCommander> But all soylent services would use openid internally so we can work across multiple products and codebases
[14:29] <@xlefay> Landon: and mind you, that ldap module isn't perfect at all.
[14:30] <@NCommander> Basically everything has openid consumer support these days
[14:30] <@xlefay> NCommander: minus IRC.
[14:30] <@NCommander> xlefay, I can get creative with nickserv if I had to
[14:30] <@mattie_p> alright, anything else?
[14:30] <@mattie_p> any questions for NCommander?
[14:30] <@NCommander> There's an open discussion item on how the production hardware and clusters will be setup
[14:30] <@mattie_p> Need to move on to MrBluze, if he is back
[14:31] <+janrinok> thx NCommander get some sleep!
[14:31] <@MrBluze> yes, before work
[14:31] <@NCommander> and platforms dev will be working on
[14:31] <@xlefay> Question: how long is this going to take from this point?
[14:31] <@audioguy> Yes. Could NC and other isn the 'code' group lease put whatthey are working on in whoswho?
[14:31] <@MrBluze> having not seein anything prior to now
[14:31] <@mattie_p> MrBluze, give us a few minutes, please, after this topic its your turn
[14:31] <@MrBluze> ok
[14:32] <@NCommander> audioguy, I'll get my stuf and devs overall plans on the wiki, but the dev team is very informal
[14:32] <@NCommander> Aside from myself and robind, I don't think anyone has formally asked to join, and I won't assign work to someone who's just drive by contributing
[14:32] <@martyb> NCommander: please e-mail a copy to mrcoolbp
[14:32] <@Barrabas> NCommander: How many people are actively working in your group?
[14:32] <@audioguy> That is fine, but it is helpful to be able to at least get a rough idea - like paul and I did.
[14:33] <@NCommander> Barrabas, I've gotten pull requests from six people. However, as I said, its mostly drive by contributions
[14:33] <+stderr> NCommander: I think I asked a long, long time ago and I was added to the dev mailinglist, but other than that...
[14:33] <@NCommander> stderr, ah, missed it. Ok, so the dev team is now three people
[14:33] <@Barrabas> NCommander: OK. We should fix that.
[14:33] <@NCommander> Barrabas, fix what?
[14:33] <@audioguy> Well, NCommander, what you just told me I wouod have known had you put it on the wiki ;-)
[14:33] <@Barrabas> NCommander: Have more volunteers, so you're not doing everything.
[14:33] <@mattie_p> well, that's why we're having this meeting, to get everything public
[14:34] <@mattie_p> so we know what volunteers to ask for
[14:34] <+kobach> stderr: found more bacon in the freezer
[14:34] <@xlefay> bacon++
[14:34] <@Zapp> karma - bacon: 11
[14:34] <+stderr> kobach: SUCCESS!!!
[14:34] <@mattie_p> anwyway, NCommander, I know you were talking server cluster? can we address that please?
[14:34] <@NCommander> Barrabas, open source development depends on people coming to you, and allowing them to scratch personal itches
[14:34] <+stderr> bacon++
[14:34] <@Zapp> karma - bacon: 12
[14:34] <+stderr> kobach++
[14:34] <@Zapp> karma - kobach: 1
[14:35] <@xlefay> NCommander is correct.
[14:35] <@mattie_p> this is another topic that needs to be addressed, and soon
[14:35] <@NCommander> Barrabas, unless they're formally ingreated into the team and want to do stuff that in some cases is dredge work (mod_perl 2.0), it won't fly
[14:35] <+kobach> stderr: my hunger dictates bacon not be waited on to cook to put upon this pizza
[14:35] <@NCommander> mattie_p, yes, that item
[14:35] <@mattie_p> I know I'd feel more comfortable with a final consensus
[14:35] <@xlefay> !plug-unload karma
[14:35] <@xlefay> ugh it ignores me again //cc : Landon
[14:35] <@NCommander> Right now, the dev team is using Ubuntu for the VM, and the "development" (read: current production) servers
[14:35] <@Barrabas> NCommander: You get to choose who does work and how, I just think you should have more people that say "how can I help?"
[14:36] <@NCommander> Barrabas, i've put a call in every status update to drop into channel. SOme have taken me up on it :-)
[14:36] <@mattie_p> lets come back to volunteers please, I want to close out this item
[14:36] <@NCommander> sys team has appeared to have decided to use CentOS from this point out. While I have issues with the way this decision was made, the fact is it puts at odd ends
[14:37] <@NCommander> At this point, redoing my internal notes, VM stuff, and everything else is a huge job.
[14:37] <@NCommander> And from informal polling, those involved in dev appear to be more confortible with an Debian-derievative vs. a RHEL one
[14:38] <+stderr> I agree with that one.
[14:38] <@martyb> NCommander: Any concerns with either platform with scalabilty as we ramp up to Barrabas
[14:38] <@martyb> * vision
[14:38] <+kobach> plus rhel has questionable ties to the NSA...
[14:38] <@NCommander> I have less issues with RHEL than CentOS
[14:38] <@NCommander> (and despite what people are aout to tell me, no they are not the same)
[14:38] <@xlefay> They aren't, but red hat is having people work full time on CentOS nowadays.
[14:38] <@paulej72> Redhat just took over CentOS iirc
[14:39] <@xlefay> not took over, just employed some developers.
[14:39] <+kobach> :o
[14:39] <@NCommander> I'm just going to say that for the foreseable future, they're different
[14:39] <@xlefay> What's an NDA?
[14:39] <+kobach> non disclosure agreement
[14:39] <@FunPika> non disclosure agreement
[14:39] <@NCommander> non-disclosure agreement
[14:39] <@mattie_p> ^^
[14:39] <@Barrabas> Of four people that regularly do work in sys, three want to use CentOS.
[14:39] <@NCommander> Holy echo
[14:39] <@xlefay> eh one would've been enough but thx
[14:39] <+stderr> Personally I would prefer a Debian Stable platform over a Debian-derivative or testing/unstable/experimental.
[14:39] <@NCommander> Barrabas, and of the people actively contriuting to soylent, we'd prefer a debian derirvate
[14:40] <@NCommander> I'm open to the discussion, and I've been open to it from day one
[14:40] <@NCommander> But I was never asked to, or asked for dev's opinion
[14:40] <@xlefay> In all fairness, it's up to sysops to make this decision; if you don't agree you should take it up with them, if they aren't.. then you gotta go to mattie_p
[14:40] <@mattie_p> xlefay Its not the decision, its the way the decision was made
[14:40] <@paulej72> I am currently contributing to Dev but I am a RHEL user. I can work with any linux
[14:40] <@NCommander> I had huge prolems with how decision was made
[14:41] <@mattie_p> There was never a chance for consensus to be made before hand
[14:41] <@martyb> looking ahead, and as much as is reasonably possible, we should try and be platform agnostic wrt OS, DB, etc, so we can handle scaling issues.
[14:41] <@xlefay> mattie_p: 3 out of 4 prefer CentOS in sysops.. I'd say that's consensus
[14:41] <@NCommander> The man reason dev and sys forked was there was no decission
[14:41] <@mattie_p> xlefay consensus within sys, but not out of everyone who needs to use the system
[14:42] <@NCommander> xlefay, prefer is a dangerous word. How many prefer that we replace something that is known to work, and is well supported by dev with something that isn't?
[14:42] <+stderr> xlefay: Yes, but if Dev, who needs to get stuff working on the system, wasn't asked at all...
[14:42] <@mattie_p> xlefay what If sys decided to change the OS your IRC server is on
[14:42] <@xlefay> mattie_p: then they would first have to move it ;)
[14:42] <@NCommander> stderr, you need to be a bit more specific. Not all of sys was asked. I'm on both sys and lead of dev, and was never asked
[14:42] <@audioguy> Well, it has to work with either in the end, right? Why does there have to be just one system? Can't people just use what they like?
[14:42] <@xlefay> No-one's getting root access to my box.
[14:42] <@NCommander> robind, wasn't asked until today since he've been AFK
[14:43] <@NCommander> Slash should work on any UNIX-like
[14:43] <@NCommander> I know for a fact that it actually used to work on Solaris at one point
[14:43] <+stderr> LOL... "Should"... :-)
[14:43] <+kobach> ^
[14:43] <@NCommander> And as I said, I'd be willing to have the discussion
[14:43] <@martyb> NCommander: chips & dips in a dorm room, IIRC?
[14:43] <@NCommander> But because there's have been no discussion, I'm not inclined to change it because sys decreed it so.
[14:43] <@xlefay> Sufficed to say, regardless of how the decision was made, it was and regardless what one might think, it is by definition the decision that falls under sysops, so if you really don't agree, take it up with them or push it up the chain
[14:44] <@xlefay> otherwise why have a sysops team in the first place?
[14:44] <@mattie_p> xlefay, he did, and my decision was to bring up the topic today, both as a learning experience for everyone else
[14:44] <@mattie_p> and to have the discussion that didn't take place beforehand
[14:44] <@xlefay> mattie_p: except who from sys is here?
[14:44] <@mattie_p> mechanicjay
[14:44] <@xlefay> mechanicjay: are you here?
[14:44] <@NCommander> and robind
[14:44] <@robind> mechanicjay, robind, NCommander
[14:44] <@mattie_p> zford was notified and couldn't attend
[14:44] <@mechanicjay> I am
[14:44] <@audioguy> As a sysop, I always considered my job to be to meet the needs of my users.
[14:44] <@robind> so 3/4 of us
[14:44] <@NCommander> so 3/4 of sys is here
[14:44] <@xlefay> So.. how many are now in the system teams?
[14:45] <@NCommander> 4 total
[14:45] <@xlefay> so from the 3 that are here, what do you want for OS?
[14:45] <@LaminatorX> It sounds like a dev/sys summit might be called for. Lay out the pros&cons, state objections, propose solutions, etc.
[14:45] <@mattie_p> my point in bringing this up is that we need to avoid doing stuff like this, without communication
[14:45] <@robind> i don't see how dev falls into it
[14:45] <@NCommander> xlefay, to be very blunt, if something says it needs to run on X, then why the hell should sys be trying to run it on Y without at least consulting the people who are coding it?
[14:45] <@robind> it shouldn't matter to them what flavor of linux it is
[14:45] <@NCommander> brb
[14:46] <@xlefay> NCommander: That's something to ask them, not me.
[14:46] <@robind> IMO this decision falls wholly unto the sys team, though of course we should listen to what dev/etc have to say about it
[14:46] <+stderr> robind: Who says it should be Linux? If the Sys group says "Minix" or "Hurd", that should be it, right?
[14:46] <@Landon> stderr: windows?
[14:46] <@robind> stderr, but they didn't
[14:46] <@LaminatorX> Let's not straw an.
[14:46] <@robind> stderr, the two options on the table right now
[14:46] <@mechanicjay> If we're keeping this open source, we need to avoid tying ourselves to one distro. Agreed, it shouldn't matter what OS it runs on.
[14:46] <@robind> stderr, are centos or ubuntu
[14:46] <@xlefay> Just for the record, I'm not defending SYS or whoever made this decision. I'm merely saying, it's their call.
[14:47] <@NCommander> mechanicjay, ZFS is open source, but only works out of the box on Solaris. Launchpad is open source but only works in the latest release of Ubuntu. Tying to a distro is not inhertiantly a bad thing
[14:47] <@mechanicjay> And without the overlord of sys here, we need to table this.
[14:47] <@mattie_p> mechanicjay, I agree
[14:47] <+kobach> i think they should use OPENSTEP
[14:47] <@NCommander> kobach, on what kernel :-P
[14:47] <@robind> kobach, noted and discarded :)
[14:47] <@xlefay> man, let's go old school and use 3.1
[14:47] <@mattie_p> I'm just bringing it up now as a learning experience for us all
[14:47] <+kobach> :p
[14:47] <@MrBluze> workbench 3.1
[14:47] <@NCommander> mechanicjay, maybe I said that badly
[14:48] <@NCommander> mechanicjay, ok, I don't have an issue with slash supporting multple distros, or OSes
[14:48] <+stderr> MrBluze: I got an old Amiga I can start up if needed... :-)
[14:48] <@NCommander> mechanicjay, but the infrastructure we're using should be relatively standardized
[14:48] <@robind> yeah would be nice if all of our httpds were running the same os
[14:48] <@MrBluze> im gone for 10 min, and gone in 30. bbak
[14:48] <@NCommander> mechanicjay, if sys wants CentOS, and are willing to support it, fine, with them realziing that the dev team is using Ubuntu at the moment
[14:49] <@mattie_p> mechanicjay, a decision that we're going to have to live with for 5+ or 10+ years is something that deserves plenty of thought
[14:49] <@audioguy> Yeah, I want Gentoo ;-)
[14:49] <@NCommander> To make a final point
[14:49] <@mattie_p> I want us to standardize our platform so to make it easier for sys to maintain, and dev has a single environment
[14:49] <@FunPika> Lets just get Slashcode running on Windows ME ;)
[14:49] <@xlefay> Just not sure if it was wise to bring it up now.. obviously zford isn't here, it serves no point since it doesn't break anything right now. Just noticed, it's a mere waste of time.
[14:49] <@mechanicjay> mattie_p: There is no reason to have to live with an OS choice for more longer than it takes to install a new vm.
[14:49] <@NCommander> If the final decision is to use CentOS, I rather us go to full RHEL once we have financal resources available
[14:50] <@mattie_p> well, I think that's far down the road
[14:50] <@mattie_p> MrBluze just left us, I think
[14:50] <@audioguy> Right now NCommander is the bottleneck for many things technical I would like to keepp him happy.
[14:50] <@MrBluze> .. im not on dev or sys, but i agree u have to make sure the OS is properly supported and not beta
[14:50] <@MrBluze> i am back in 8 min
[14:50] <@mattie_p> ok
[14:50] <@LaminatorX> Change management practices should become a part of our governance plan.
[14:50] <@Barrabas> mattie_p: Can I have the floor to ask a few questions?
[14:50] <@NCommander> mechanicjay, er, no, its somewhat more complicated then that. Every distro has different ways to intergrate to LDAP, and unless we're doing completely self-hosted libraries and such, we can introduce bugs and pain by changing crap a lot
[14:50] <@xlefay> "beta"?!
[14:51] <@mattie_p> Barrabas, sure
[14:51] <@MrBluze> u wouldnt be running debian testing would u
[14:51] <@MrBluze> for example.
[14:51] <@MrBluze> ok im gone for a few min
[14:51] <@xlefay> fuck beta ;)
[14:51] <+kobach> fuck beta
[14:51] <@mattie_p> yes, we know, thanks
[14:51] <@Barrabas> mechanicjay: Jason, how hard would it be for you to use Ubuntu in sys? And would learning the new system be of value to you professionally?
[14:51] <@Barrabas> robind: Robin, same question.
[14:51] <@mechanicjay> I am not speaking on this topic anymore until zford is around.
[14:52] <@mechanicjay> and we have a sys meeting about it
[14:52] <@mattie_p> mechanicjay ffair enough
[14:52] <@mattie_p> so long as all sys is there
[14:52] <@NCommander> I'm not letting this one go back into the dark
[14:52] <@NCommander> Because that's how this mess got started
[14:52] <@robind> NCommander, mechanicjay, Barrabas, we need to schedule a sys meeting
[14:52] <@robind> and then we can sort this out
[14:52] <@robind> and be civil please
[14:52] <@mechanicjay> agreed
[14:53] <@mattie_p> robind agreed as well
[14:53] <@NCommander> I'm essentially unavailable after today for at least a week
[14:53] <@xlefay> robind: didn't mechanicjay just say you had?
[14:53] <@Barrabas> agreed.
[14:53] <@Barrabas> mattie_p: I'll shut up now.
[14:53] <@mattie_p> Barrabas, its cool
[14:53] <@robind> xlefay, mechanicjay, I was told we have no scheduled meeting
[14:53] <@mattie_p> If I didn't bring this up now, though, the rift would have been too far
[14:53] <@mechanicjay> we don't, bad grammar Should have said we need one about it
[14:53] <@robind> so I'm propoing we pick a time that works for those present -- does anyone know when zford might be available?
[14:53] <@xlefay> mechanicjay: robind: aah thanks for clearing that up.
[14:54] <@NCommander> robind, the problem is that I'm now in a horrible timezone for meeting anyone due to being in China. Its 4 AM here
[14:54] <@mattie_p> it needs to be publicly addressed before it can be resolved. But I'm glad for it to move back into sys which is where it belongs
[14:54] <@robind> NCommander, ah didn't realize you'd switched continents
[14:54] <@NCommander> robind, I made an exception for the staff meeting
[14:54] <@NCommander> but I can't do another week of nights
[14:54] <@xlefay> Can we table this and let Sys handle it for now, check back in a week from now on this subject?
[14:55] <@xlefay> mattie_p: ^
[14:55] <@robind> yeah sounds good.
[14:55] <@NCommander> With one andemenium
[14:55] <@NCommander> I want a complete freeze on migrations to new boxes until this is resolved.
[14:55] <@mattie_p> Yes, I think we've gotten as much out of this topic as we can right now
[14:55] <@mattie_p> NCommander what migrations are ongoing right now?
[14:56] <@mattie_p> mechanicjay, I think you've gotten us off bluehost by now, right?
[14:56] <@mechanicjay> almost, just have to finish the mail stuff
[14:56] <@NCommander> mattie_p, zford has several CentOS nodes already spun up and installed. I don't know how close he is to having slash running, but frankly, I don't think its unjustified to be concerned I'm going to come back in a week and find that we migrated because someone "just did it"
[14:56] <@NCommander> Which will make a bad situation worse
[14:56] <@mattie_p> well, why don't you give us a quiick update, mechanicjay?
[14:56] <@xlefay> How is a freeze going to affect us?
[14:57] <@mechanicjay> it's not, current prod is on Ubuntu.
[14:57] <@NCommander> I also want justificatoin on what CentOS brings us
[14:57] <@xlefay> Then why is a freeze required?
[14:57] <@NCommander> xlefay, because the only reason I found out the new hardware is CentOS is because linode sent me automatic announcements
[14:57] <@mechanicjay> Work is ongoing on some infrastructre stuff, which is out of scope of this conversation. We're talking about Ubuntu to run the newsreader here, right?
[14:58] <@xlefay> NCommander: in all fairness, it was announced that CentOS was going to be used. At least it was on IRC.
[14:58] <@mechanicjay> It's also in the wiki
[14:58] <@NCommander> xlefay, citation needed. I was given a PDF that said what we were doing. After I signed off on it, it was added to the wiki
[14:58] <@Barrabas> xlefay: Certain people were E-mailed a document that omitted the CentOS thing.
[14:58] <@NCommander> mechanicjay, check the history log, it was added at a later date
[14:58] <@xlefay> To be fair, all teams have been shitty at communication lately.
[14:58] <@Barrabas> xlefay: Myself included.
[14:58] <@xlefay> Barrabas: that could have easily been a mistake.
[14:58] <@mattie_p> ok, look, we're discussing as freeze
[14:59] <@Barrabas> xlefay: It was a mistake, but it snowballed into the current situation.
[14:59] <@mattie_p> xlefay it might have been, but the lack of communication caused the problem
[14:59] <@xlefay> can we please not repeat eachother, it's freaky
[14:59] <@mattie_p> I told NCommander he could bring it up today, hoping to at least let everyone know
[14:59] <+kobach> no, shes a twork
[15:00] <@mattie_p> NCommander is complaining about the lack of formal decision making process for this
[15:00] <@xlefay> So.. a freeze isn't going to affect us, then why have it? That's my question.
[15:00] <+stderr> Is it really such a big problem to freeze until the matter has been completely resolved? Does anything really need to be move right now?
[15:00] <@Barrabas> I want to be completely off of BlueHost.
[15:00] <@mattie_p> ^^ what I asked mechanicjay
[15:00] <@NCommander> I'm willing to make an exception to said freeze for bluehost
[15:01] <@Barrabas> We've already migrated DNS, forums, and wiki. E-mail is the only remaining service.
[15:01] <@NCommander> But I don't want slash or the database moving until this is finally resolved.
[15:01] <@mattie_p> that sounds fair
[15:01] <@Barrabas> E-mail is about 30 forwards, so it's pretty simple.
[15:01] <@NCommander> Those systems are completely under sys and don't overlap with dev, so I don't hugely care what they run
[15:01] <@MrBluze> ok i nearly have to go ... my wiki shows the plan, much of the work for phase 1 is complete but still on the wiki, current projects are collapsible threads, continual work on css by paulej/audioguy, single column view / adjustable views for tablets/phones ...
[15:01] <@xlefay> Who's speaking on behalf of Sysops now?
[15:01] <@xlefay> then I mean.. one person.
[15:02] <@NCommander> For the two things that *do* touch, that is to say, database systems, and slash, I want those to not move to all until this is set
[15:02] <@mattie_p> mechanicjay, probably
[15:02] <@LaminatorX> (This is a good illustration of why we should use email as little as possible.)
[15:02] <@xlefay> mechanicjay: do you agree on a freeze or not?
[15:02] <@mattie_p> MrBluze, feel free to go on, I know you have time constraints as well
[15:02] <@mechanicjay> I can talk about a little of sys stuff, though I wasn't able to touch base with zford about specifically where he is with what he's working on.
[15:02] <@MrBluze> my problems are thre are 3 active members only, i havent had contact with art for nearly a week, and i need at least 1 graphic designer to work on new skins with me
[15:02] <@mechanicjay> I have no authority to agree to that'
[15:03] <@MrBluze> frontend team are fantastic and are leading the way - paulej is doing more than anyone at the moment
[15:03] <@mechanicjay> But it makes sense to me
[15:03] <@mattie_p> mechanicjay I think we can agree to not migrate the production box at this time, right?
[15:03] <@mechanicjay> yeah, a long way off from that being a possibilty anyway.
[15:03] <@mattie_p> ok
[15:03] <@xlefay> Better question yet, was that even on the planning to begin with?
[15:03] <@MrBluze> (sorry for talking through everyone) .. and I am mindful of 'silos' effect, i want to work closer with dev and know which dev I am to talk to for what aspect of the site - then we can be more efficient
[15:03] <@Barrabas> Both Mattie and I have the authority. Preventing internecine slaughter clearly falls within our purview.
[15:04] <@NCommander> I'd like to have a "global" mailing list for all staff
[15:04] <@NCommander> Because of time differences, shits hard to arrange
[15:04] <@xlefay> NCommander: already on the planning, we're calling it ops
[15:04] <@NCommander> xlefay, neat.
[15:04] <@NCommander> Email is not inhertiantly bad
[15:04] <@mattie_p> So MrBluze, you need art and graphics design help?
[15:04] <@Barrabas> xlefay: Bah. I liked "shipwide". :-)
[15:04] <@NCommander> Just needs to have a large venue with archivable :-)
[15:04] <@martyb> xlefay: have master: ops, which points to dev, style, etc.
[15:04] <@MrBluze> to be brief: style: phase 1 - fix the site as it is .. this is not too far off tbh, phase 2: reskin, redesign and so on ... our priorities are minmal JS, good use of CSS, and graceful degradation
[15:05] <@xlefay> Barrabas: that's for general announcements
[15:05] <@MrBluze> yes mattie_p - that is nearly non-existent at the moment except for myself
[15:05] <@xlefay> staff mailing list name is ops ;)
[15:05] <@xlefay> martyb: eh??
[15:05] <@mattie_p> Feel free to write up an article for publication on the site, that seems to be the best way to get the word out
[15:05] <@NCommander> xlefay, can we set it up that anyone can subscribe, but only people with @soylentnews.org emails or a specific whitelist can post?
[15:05] <@MrBluze> i will, and now i basically have to go .. at least in 10 min i log out
[15:05] <@xlefay> Yes, mechanicjay and I will be on that when he's done with the other things ;)
[15:06] <@mattie_p> ok
[15:06] <@mattie_p> any questions or comments for MrBluze or anyone else in style?
[15:06] <@xlefay> We will have multiple mailing lists for different things, etc.
[15:06] <@martyb> xlefay: I meant that the master mailing list (ops is it?) should point to sub-mailing-lists which are theones which have actual e-mail addresses. Heirarchy. that's all.
[15:06] <@mattie_p> I'll try to contact art directly
[15:06] <@xlefay> MrBluze: how about that lynx specific layout?
[15:06] <@MrBluze> we have someone working on that
[15:06] <@Barrabas> MrBluze: What's the weather/temperature down under?
[15:06] <@MrBluze> i havent heard from him for a few days
[15:06] <@xlefay> martyb: there are plans ;)
[15:07] <@MrBluze> its 20 something today i think, partly cloudy, the coal mine is still burning in victgoria
[15:07] <@martyb> xlefay: thank-you.
[15:07] <@xlefay> MrBluze: still, I suggest scrapping that notion and just writing valid HTML, lynx will comply ;)
[15:07] <@MrBluze> thats fair enough xlefay
[15:07] <@Barrabas> Oh! I had forgotten about that. Coal mines can burn for a looooong time!
[15:07] <@MrBluze> but we still need a lynx version - it's a very useful thing in many ways
[15:07] <@xlefay> .....
[15:07] <@xlefay> -____________-
[15:07] <@martyb> MrBluze: I heartily agree.
[15:07] <@xlefay> If you write valid HTML, LYNX will "just" work
[15:08] <@xlefay> there's no need for special crap, that'll just lower the overall quality
[15:08] <@MrBluze> and lastly, since i have to run - I vote yes for any changes the group makes lol
[15:08] <@martyb> and it will support assistive tech, too.
[15:08] <@MrBluze> assistive tech
[15:08] <@Barrabas> MrBluze: I've been meaning to E-mail FrogBlast and see what he's up to. I'll have him get in touch.
[15:08] <@MrBluze> oh
[15:08] <@MrBluze> and phase 3 ...
[15:08] <@xlefay> mattie_p: how much subjects to go?
[15:08] <@NCommander> Sorry about that
[15:09] <@MrBluze> we may consider app development ? i dont know .. but integrating all aspects of the community's activities is something worth thinking about
[15:09] <@mattie_p> xlefay, back to Barrabas for talk about business
[15:09] <@NCommander> I think that covers all the basics
[15:09] <@mattie_p> we should be wrapping up soon
[15:09] <@MrBluze> ok thats it
[15:09] <@MrBluze> off i go
[15:09] <@MrBluze> see u :)
[15:09] <@mattie_p> thanks
[15:09] <@MrBluze> quick question if needed
[15:09] <+stderr> MrBluze: Why an app?
[15:10] <@xlefay> An app?
[15:10] <@xlefay> eh..?
[15:10] <@mattie_p> Barrabas, can you lay out some proposals on business and revenue at this time? Or do we need to postpone that discussion?
[15:10] <@martyb> Is QA/test on the agenda?
[15:10] <@xlefay> mattie_p: please postpone.
[15:10] <@xlefay> Barrabas: ^
[15:10] <+stderr> xlefay: <MrBluze> we may consider app development ? i dont know .. but integrating all aspects of the community's activities is something worth thinking about
[15:10] <@mattie_p> martyb I didn't have it as a topic, but we can discuss it
[15:10] <@martyb> I would appreciate that.
[15:10] <@Barrabas> Can we postpone revenue that a bit? That's my next big document for the wiki, and we can let people read it to get background.
[15:10] <@martyb> Barrabas: workds for me.
[15:10] <@mattie_p> sure, then martyb is next
[15:10] <@xlefay> This meeting has been set at a tricky time, it's taking longer than it was expected.
[15:11] <@xlefay> Barrabas: ^
[15:11] <@xlefay> It may be best to just set another date & time where more people can attend.
[15:11] <@mattie_p> I don't know how often we're going to be able to do this
[15:11] <@mattie_p> maybe once every two weeks?
[15:11] <@xlefay> Just go over the important bits, finish up and let everything talked about sink in
[15:11] <@xlefay> mattie_p: whenever necessary I'd say.
[15:11] <@mattie_p> I really hate meetings, so that is a good plan
[15:12] <@MrBluze> an app: is just an idea, and i know the philosophical aversion to it - and practical problems with it, so it is just an idea
[15:12] <@xlefay> once a month minimum?
[15:12] <@xlefay> MrBluze: will it come with subscriptions?
[15:12] <@MrBluze> but integrating the activities of the community to one interface is a good idea imho
[15:12] <@Barrabas> mattie_p: I'd like to discuss this with you offline.
[15:12] <@mattie_p> Barrabas sure
[15:12] <@MrBluze> xlefay: i have no idea lol
[15:12] <@Barrabas> MrBluze: I like ideas. See how far you can push the envelope.
[15:13] <@MrBluze> cheers thanks
[15:13] <@MrBluze> ok i better run .. meet the deadlines or make the headlines
[15:13] <@MrBluze> i wanna stay out of the headlines !
[15:13] <@mattie_p> martyb, you're up then
[15:13] <@xlefay> MrBluze++ ;')
[15:13] <@LaminatorX> <brokenrcord> a lot of this sort of thing could BA done non-realtime on the forum, avoiding talk overs and time zone problems.</brokenrcord>
[15:13] <@MrBluze> ciao!
[15:13] <@martyb> I am not in the QA group, but have some professional experience in that realm.
[15:13] <@xlefay> LaminatorX: I have to agree.. mailing lists ftw.
[15:13] <@LaminatorX> BA=be
[15:13] <@martyb> Just wanted to make sure there's an awareness of the need and how it can support the dev community.
[15:14] <@paulej72> I am the qa group
[15:14] <@martyb> Ffrom my experience. It's a lot easier to build in testability than to add it in later.
[15:14] <@xlefay> You are 'the' qa group?
[15:14] <@audioguy> At lot of the communication problems seen here today would not exist if you were using slash for communicating major ideas and voting, etc.
[15:14] <@martyb> I've been helping out submitting bugs when I find them and occasionally adding steps to reproduce.
[15:15] <@paulej72> No one else is in QA right now oficially
[15:15] <@xlefay> paulej72: then sign me up, I'll help out
[15:15] <@paulej72> We have no QA environment
[15:15] <+stderr> paulej72: So what you're saying is blame you? :-)
[15:15] <@martyb> paulej72: has been squashing bugs left and right.
[15:15] <@xlefay> rofl
[15:16] <@paulej72> I have been working on bus using slashcott.org as a temp test environment
[15:16] <@robind> ah good old slashcott
[15:16] <@mechanicjay> surprisingly it hasn't died since that first night ;)
[15:16] <@robind> that's running on centos isn't it
[15:16] <@martyb> where are we with dev, test, and od servers?
[15:16] <@audioguy> centos, yes
[15:16] <@paulej72> I have been focusing on the css and other frontend bug, but I have bee actively looking at the other bug as I can
[15:16] <@mechanicjay> robind: it is
[15:17] <@martyb> oops, dev, test, and prod servers.
[15:17] <@xlefay> eh.. dev is a vm
[15:17] <@robind> we don't really have any official dev/test env
[15:17] <@xlefay> check #dev ...
[15:17] <@xlefay> robind: we actually do
[15:17] <@robind> oh that changed
[15:17] <@robind> well good
[15:17] <@xlefay> so.. martyb please continue
[15:17] <@NCommander> I'd like to have a edge/staging server on this front
[15:18] <@paulej72> I can give a rundown of the bigger bugs at the moment if you want to hear them
[15:18] <@martyb> I'm not really sure exactly.j
[15:18] <@NCommander> paulej72, I'd like to hear it
[15:18] <@mattie_p> not in this meeting, though
[15:18] <@mechanicjay> Yes, we need an official "qa-as-copy-of-production" to stage stuff to before pushing live.
[15:18] <@martyb> It would be nice to know when things are being rolled out, what is in it, and have a chance to beat on it before it gets promoted to production.
[15:18] <@mattie_p> please take that to #dev
[15:18] <@xlefay> paulej72: did you see that comment in #soylent?
[15:19] <@xlefay> mechanicjay: agreed but for the time being, the dev VM can be used as a dirty temporary solution
[15:19] <@Barrabas> And we wanted a separate newsfeed for staff announcements. Hmmm...
[15:20] <@martyb> I understand there are limited resources, but I can't pull and run a VM on my system.
[15:20] <+stderr> About the VM image: Please note that the hostname of the tracker changed. If you're seeding please get the latest torrent. Thanks.
[15:20] <@xlefay> also, mechanicjay, when you're done with the mail. Can IRC get an e-mail address for services (preferably, so we can identify via SMTP) so it can send out registration mails and such?
[15:20] <@xlefay> Barrabas: mailing lists, best solution for this issue
[15:20] <@xlefay> services being IRC services.
[15:21] <@mechanicjay> xlefay: please email that to me, lest I forget.
[15:21] <@xlefay> email@example.com ?
[15:21] <@mattie_p> alright team. I think we're just about done here. Are there any other major topics that need to be addressed?
[15:21] <@mechanicjay> don't have one of those yet
[15:21] <@mechanicjay> firstname.lastname@example.org
[15:21] <@xlefay> you just posted that to 100+ people eh
[15:21] <@martyb> I've got one thing....
[15:21] <@mattie_p> sure
[15:21] <@paulej72> yes some of us asked for soylentnews email but have not gotten them
[15:22] <@mechanicjay> see my story comment the other about the ridiculousness of having your email address private ;)
[15:22] <@mechanicjay> * other day
[15:22] <@Barrabas> I was doing that - I gave one to everyone who asked me...
[15:22] <@LaminatorX> Whom do we ask about an SN email, BTW?
[15:22] <@Barrabas> Me
[15:22] <@martyb> Things have been a bit "spirited" here and I just want us all to step back for a sec and have us look at how much has been accomplished. My hat is off to you all! THANK-YOU!
[15:22] <@mattie_p> well, anyone who wants one who is in this channel can get one. Ask Barrabas
[15:22] <+stderr> Barrabas: Consider yourself asked... :-)
[15:22] <@paulej72> same here
[15:23] <@martyb> Barrabas: Please add me, too.
[15:23] <@audioguy> I didn't want a soylent email address before, but am thinking now it would simplify some things.
[15:23] <@Barrabas> I was giving them out to *everyone*, and early on I got slapped by someone in sys for doing that. Now I wait for requests.
[15:23] <@xlefay> mechanicjay: rofl, might do that. Anyway mail sent.
[15:23] <+janrinok> me too please Barrabas
[15:23] <@paulej72> I think all staff should have them
[15:23] <@Barrabas> Please E-mail your requests, lest I lost track here.
[15:23] <@Landon> (btw, we're almost over 5000 clicks on the sylnt.us shorterner)
[15:23] <+stderr> Barrabas: Address?
[15:23] <@mattie_p> email@example.com
[15:24] <@mattie_p> you can cc me on them as well, firstname.lastname@example.org
[15:24] <@mattie_p> I'll help Barrabas remember
[15:24] <@LaminatorX> It wouldn't be bad to at least have forwards/aliases for all staff, if there are those who don't want to manage another mail account.
[15:24] <@xlefay> or bcc if you prefer to include mattie_p in your secret love letters to Barrabas
[15:24] <@Barrabas> (by floating my E-mail to everyone on the other channel. Thanks :-) )
[15:24] <@mattie_p> Your email address is on the wiki, Barrabas
[15:25] <@mattie_p> and I'm fine with other other channel having my email
[15:25] <@martyb> I volunteer to scrape requests and forward to Barrabas
[15:25] <@Barrabas> Not in clickable form, that automated systems can recognize.
[15:25] <@mrgirlpluggedout> I, for one, do not welcome another mail account, LaminatorX :)
[15:25] <@xlefay> Barrabas: it doesn't need to be clickable nowadays
[15:25] <@martyb> on second thought, I decline.
[15:26] <@mattie_p> I'm pretty sure scrapers can scrape obfuscated email addresses in the form you listed
[15:26] <@xlefay> far from it in fact, even the JS encapsulated e-mail addresses aren't "safe" anynmore
[15:26] <@Barrabas> mechanicjay: I need to meet with you sometime and discover how to add forwarders in the new system.
[15:26] <@Landon> and that's why I put my email in a CAPTCHA :)
[15:26] <@mechanicjay> Barrabas: there will be a webinterface for you
[15:26] <@Landon> with a clickable link to another address
[15:26] <+janrinok> Is that the end of the meeting?
[15:27] <@xlefay> I hope so